The Rohrbaugh Forum

Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Cleaning and Maintenance of the R-9 => Topic started by: R9SCarry on August 10, 2004, 11:31:35 PM

Title: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: R9SCarry on August 10, 2004, 11:31:35 PM
Thought I'd start a new thread for this.  

Re the discussion on the Recoil Spring (http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/YaBB.cgi?board=Cleaning;action=display;num=1091398100;start=0) I thought I'd take a pic to provide you guys with more info ....


(http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/thr/r9s-tests-02/springs-cr-txt-s.jpg)

Ref this image ..... I have shown the main spring with cup ... no more need be said on that one.  But there is some doubt as to how the inner 2º spring might be removed.

Well .... subject to a full heads up from Eric, here is the construction.  Note, on the right, the disk which bears on barrel lug - has a threaded spigot .... which appears to engage on a threaded portion of the inner spring guide rod.  The spigot is perhaps 1/4 inch long and I have arrowed the start of that where it meeets the guide rod plain section.

At far left is the end we see in the assemble gun ... and that is the end of the inner guide rod.  The mainspring guide is bored out to accept the inner spring guide rod and itself has of course got a stop collar for the main spring.

I can see that the disk or inner spring retaining disk would have to me unscrewed from the inner spring guide rod - to facilitate removal of same ..... now this is where we need more info.  I'd strongly suspect that the thread is Loctited and ... in order to undo this you would need suiable tools ... and soft vice jaws no doubt.  Probably, you would hold the front end of inner guide rod in soft jaws and ... by dint of some strap wrench perhaps ... unscrew the disk to free off the inner spring .... conjecture right now.

Hopefully we can add this info once aquired.

Hope the pic helps just a bit - hard to show everything with equal clarity.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

NOTE - I have edited this pic to include a warning re the correct orientation of the main spring in the total assembly ..... Texas_Bob posted that he had gotten his other way about - which led to a slide jam.

So .. all those not sure .. check this pic above.

Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: shelb on August 11, 2004, 12:17:43 AM
Outstanding job on the graphic!  I would be interested to examine the inner spring of an R9S that has been fired 1000 times opposed to a new one.
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: R9SCarry on August 11, 2004, 12:30:49 AM
I'd agree on that Shelby - useful comparison it'd be.  I am only up to about 300 rounds so - early days!

As I said tho - I guess the Bros Rohrbaugh do not rate this spring with the same importance they do the mainspring.
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: MurrayNevada on August 11, 2004, 01:38:48 AM
Chris:
For the sake of us non mechanical guys can you explain why the two springs do not lose their effectiveness at the same number of rounds?
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: R9SCarry on August 11, 2004, 01:54:31 AM
Mike - IMO it is down to their relative rates.

Guessing here ... but let's say the main spring has a 12# rate ... and the inner one 3#.  The work done by each will be proportional to the rate - and so the larger will ''fatigue'' faster.  It does ''most of the work''.

I see that inner as purely allowing for a ''compound'' effect - it is not working all that hard.  It does tho ''extend'' the function of the main and buffer it somewhat.  In theory, I suspect the inner might need replaced once for every three or four mains ...... that tho is speculation based on little more than ''gut feeling''! :)

I shall hope soon that we will have some sort of defininitive answer from Eric et al ..... all the better to explain the interactions.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To add - I have emailed Eric and ... hope in fullness of time he can add some info for me to pass on.
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: BillinPittsburgh on August 11, 2004, 12:16:47 PM
If I understand what I am looking at correctly, both springs are going to take a pounding when the gun is fired.

Depending on the difficulty of disassembly, I wonder if an entire captive assembly is available for purchase?
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: R9SCarry on August 11, 2004, 12:33:46 PM
Bill - yes I certainly agree they both take a pounding but my contention is that the inner will be slower to fatigue as it is bound to be a lower rate.... and whilst an integral part of recoil system .... still 2º.

Captive assembly?  Hmmm ... I think Bill if that were the case, we would be looking at quite some cost ..... considering the component count and quality thereof.  It would mean ....

Inner guide rod, with spring .... plus end disk - and - necessarily too another main spring guide, as that is captive on the assembly.

Maybe - and depending on what Eric has to say about the springs .... this might be something where we could do an ''exchange'' deal .... purchase of new captive assembly but return of original for credit - such that final cost not too great.
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: BillinPittsburgh on August 11, 2004, 03:05:25 PM
This may not be a fair comparison but a Glock captive recoil spring and guide assembly for a model 26 retails for about $15.

I suppose that if the inner spring is tempered so that it is fully compressed at a relatively early point in its stress/strain curve, it wouldn't wear out as quickly, and in such a case it also wouldn't contribute as much to the overall function.  I don't yet own a Rohrbaugh, but I have to guess that it was designed for a fairly significant contribution to overall slide movement control.

I'd be interested to hear what the people at Rohrbaugh have to say on this issue.
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: R9SCarry on August 11, 2004, 05:57:53 PM
Bill ...... info update ...

I had a call from Eric ... mainly because he thought my inner guide rod end disk was not cinched up quite tight .... having seen my pic.

He was right!  Altho it would not undo it did in fact have a half turn available to tighten - thus it was potentially (or could be) a smidgeon too long - I have now got it fully wound in.  He is sending me a replacement ass'y and I'll send back mine.  Probably it was an early days thing where Loctiting was not quite spot on.

Anyways .. Eric asked Karl re this inner spring and its longevity ... well, we are essentially talking here about lifetime useage .. within of course reasonable thru-put.  The AH and Gun Tests R9 - which has had 5,000 or more rounds thru it - is still just fine with that spring.

The thinking would be that - in the event that someone had put thru many, many 1,000's of rounds and there was any issue - it'd be taken care of thru life guaranteee anyways.  So - this spring is not to be considered the same as the main.  Also incidentally - this is not a user takedown deal .... the sub ass'y would have to go back to Rohrbaugh.

If you watch the action when pulling slide back you may notice that the inner spring is taking up just the first (and probably therefore most violent) portion of recoil .... damping if you like the onset of the main spring compression, which then takes all the rest of the work ... thus why I described earlier the ''composite'' nature of the spring's functions.  It's a clever concept I reckon, ''smoothing'' out the whole cycle.

Hope this fills in some gaps.
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: BillinPittsburgh on August 11, 2004, 06:10:01 PM
Thanks for the information, Chris.
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: gunner930 on August 19, 2004, 03:19:35 AM
 Just yesterday I "took down" my R9s for the first time and really noticed the layout of the recoil spring and inner spring. I remember thinking it was like coil springs on a car and the inner spring system being like a shock absorber or strut on a car. Again, I can say Rohrbaugh went all out for function and smoothness in the design of this gun.
 "This has been a deep thought by Gunner930"   ;D
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: RJ HEDLEY on August 19, 2004, 08:36:10 AM
" "This has been a deep thought by Gunner930"     :)

.......Hurts, don't it ??  
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: gunner930 on August 19, 2004, 02:56:49 PM
 Yes it does. Too much strain on my weary brain  :-/ ???
   ;)
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: mefly2 on September 28, 2009, 10:05:32 PM
My mainspring on an unfired R9S measures 1.5065 OAL after removal from the pistol.  At what length measurement (as opposed to # of rounds fired) should it be replaced.  It occurs to me thay the recoil impulse - hence spring wear - would vary depending upon the mass of the bullet fired / utilized.  Help me convince department nay-sayers ...
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: Brenden on October 07, 2009, 12:48:58 AM
I am sorry for drifting,but not being able to be on the forums as I once was due to some health reasons,I love reading these OLD threads.
And miss some of the posters too!!

Brenden
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: cordy on April 30, 2010, 07:09:24 PM
I have shot/racked my Pup about 100 - 150 times and from the get go I have a FTF almost every other time I shoot so I from the start I tried several (4) types of different ammo to see if that was the problem. Two of the ammo changes were very good critical Defense Ammo (Hornady & Winchester) & still 50% FTF.  Could I be having a spring problem that would cause 50% failures? The cartridges that don't fire look like they are not hit hard enough compared to the ones that go off. My spring has lost about 1/8" of it's length in the 2 weeks I have owned it & the 100-150 shots/racks. What do you think?
 
Jim
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: kjtrains on April 30, 2010, 07:19:38 PM
It probably is time for a spring change.  The Critical Defense ammo is also a problem, because may be the batch with hard primers.  As to the Winchester, don't know why that would be a problem.

I would change the spring, use Winchester Silvertips, or Gold Dots, both 115 gr. or 124 gr. and go from there.
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: Richard S on April 30, 2010, 07:54:17 PM
What KJ said. And a good clean and lube, with some special attention to the firing pin area. Some "break-in dreck" may have worked its way in there.

Good luck.
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: tracker on April 30, 2010, 08:10:44 PM

To be more specific, do not use Critical Defense ammo; in addition to to what Richard said the only other variable is the hammer spring but not likely on a newer gun. The recoil spring is probably not the reason for the FTF.
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: kjtrains on April 30, 2010, 08:33:08 PM
Maybe not, but with 100 to 150 rds fired or racked slide and with 1/8"  loss in spring length, I would change the spring.  My thoughts.
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: tracker on April 30, 2010, 10:04:58 PM

Won't hurt; might help. I just changed one out that was 1/4" to 1/2" shorter after 150 rounds or so and everything had functioned flawlessly.
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: leeyn on March 11, 2011, 09:12:29 PM
I guess the Bros Rohrbaugh do not rate this spring with the same importance they do the mainspring. ... ::) ::)
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: backupr9 on July 02, 2011, 06:48:55 PM
Interesting thread to a newby to the forum.  I have put perhaps 350 rounds thru my pup and am on my 4th recoil spring.  Each time I have cleaned the weapon I have noticed significant shortening of the spring compared to new ones.

An early gun magazine article recommended changing at "500 rounds!"  The factory recommends 200, but some references prefer 100.  My experience suggests for a carry/backup, having an completely clean/lubed pup with fresh spring is the only way to be safe and sure.  I will continue to change when obviously shortened or at about 100 rnds.

Advice re:  proper orientation of the spring on reassembly greatly appreciated...I was unaware of this, and it may have been the reason for feeding problems I had last spring.
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: yankee2500 on July 02, 2011, 07:25:21 PM
The orientation of the spring is only on the OLD style springs, if your springs were purchased in the last few years from the factory it's not a concern.
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: backupr9 on July 02, 2011, 10:07:40 PM
Thanks Yankee.  I couldn't see any difference in the springs that I just ordered from one end to the other.  
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: Relic on July 06, 2011, 02:48:48 PM
Springs are a funny thing.  Here is a picture of a new spring and one with 340 rounds of use:

(http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb343/steverelic/springs.jpg)

As you can see, there is roughly 3/16" of set. (I didn't bother with the micrometer as the difference is obvious)  However spring rate isn't much different.  The used spring is approx 11% softer (takes ~11% less weight to deflect the same distance) than the new one.

The used spring has had one failure, a failure to feed/nose dive into the feed ramp, a called "limp wrist" by a new shooter.

Unfortunately I only have these two springs to test, so these results are not useable as a benchmark to determine spring wear rates.  That would take a quite a few more springs.

My homemade tester uses a fulcrum on one side so it has an arc and is not a perfect in-line press.  When comparing different lengths it requires me to place washers under the shorter spring to measure at the same place on the arc of my press.  It's fine for comparisons, but it's not accurate for absolute rate measurements.
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: abboberg on August 28, 2012, 05:10:23 PM
I know this is an old thread, but I wanted to add some information here since there seems to be some speculation.  I reverse-engineered the R9S spring guide rod assembly to learn that the larger spring is about 3-4 coils short of having a long life (there is just no space for those extra coils).  As far as the argument about which spring is working harder (we know it is the larger diameter spring based on experience), it is plain to see that the larger diameter spring is working harder since it has fewer working coils.  It is highly possible to use a Kel-Tec PF9 spring assembly (two counter-wound concentric springs) with the properly built rod ends, and never have a slide spring wear out in an R9 pistol.
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: Faawrenchbndr on August 28, 2012, 06:09:10 PM
I'm not an engineer,.......I'll use the recommended springs.
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: BlueC2 on August 28, 2012, 07:13:29 PM
I know this is an old thread, but I wanted to add some information here since there seems to be some speculation.  I reverse-engineered the R9S spring guide rod assembly to learn that the larger spring is about 3-4 coils short of having a long life (there is just no space for those extra coils).  As far as the argument about which spring is working harder (we know it is the larger diameter spring based on experience), it is plain to see that the larger diameter spring is working harder since it has fewer working coils.  It is highly possible to use a Kel-Tec PF9 spring assembly (two counter-wound concentric springs) with the properly built rod ends, and never have a slide spring wear out in an R9 pistol.

Arne happens to be a very skilled engineer......but I don't think he will be making any recoil springs for the R9 either ;D
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: Faawrenchbndr on August 28, 2012, 08:00:26 PM
Ok,........
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: BlueC2 on August 28, 2012, 08:11:57 PM
Ok,........

I said that as a joke because Arne runs Boberg Arms. He is clearly a skilled engineer but makes a competing product so it is unlikely he will be making any improvements to the R9.

(http://api.ning.com/files/mg8cXbDxQOHcQV-b3mDzB3TZOnzo16S3K3s0oHCnrTR8BzRo5FdcAHoojnA09j5YCKTTgm3BRHdprodE*7rsMxVyF-1OrS4M/production_XR9S_3256.jpg?width=400)
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: Faawrenchbndr on August 29, 2012, 07:32:31 PM
Ok,........an engineer can figure that out.
I'm not an engineer. I'm an A&P tech and a Weldor.

No spring changes for me.
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: Reinz on August 30, 2012, 01:18:31 AM
Yesterday I couldn't spell Weldor, now I is one.  :)

sorry couldn't resist.
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: Faawrenchbndr on September 03, 2012, 04:47:49 PM
Yesterday I couldn't spell Weldor, now I is one.  :)

sorry couldn't resist.

Been out of school a while I see,.....

A 'weldor' is the person that makes the weld.
A 'welder' is the machine or equipment that the 'weldor' uses to make the weld.
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: Reinz on September 06, 2012, 01:32:45 PM
And actually " Welder" can be used both ways ; also as the person who welds, if you look it it up.

At the time of my "joke", I was in a Blonde moment. 

My apologies to you and your profession.  :)
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: Faawrenchbndr on September 06, 2012, 06:32:22 PM
And actually " Welder" can be used both ways ; also as the person who welds, if you look it it up.

At the time of my "joke", I was in a Blonde moment. 

My apologies to you and your profession.  :)

Uh,....you may care to "look it up"
I've been a WELDOR using a WELDER for the last 29 years.
Learned the proper uses of both words a looooooooong time ago.
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: tracker on September 06, 2012, 08:02:59 PM

Personally, I had rather be a weldor than a weldee.
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: Reinz on September 07, 2012, 12:03:45 AM
And actually " Welder" can be used both ways ; also as the person who welds, if you look it it up.

At the time of my "joke", I was in a Blonde moment. 

My apologies to you and your profession.  :)

Uh,....you may care to "look it up"
I've been a WELDOR using a WELDER for the last 29 years.
Learned the proper uses of both words a looooooooong time ago.

So I reckon being a "Weldor"  means you have a great command of the English language as well.

If you don't want to accept my apology, I can do nothing more.
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: tracker on September 07, 2012, 11:37:47 AM
While dictionaries are histories of past usage I have no idea how the word was spelled 29 years ago. There is, however, another factor called common usage. Any classified ad run today for welders is very consistent in the spelling, viz.,"Welders wanted"; "Arc Welders needed"; "Hiring Rig Welders."

Sometimes, things change.
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: MRC on September 07, 2012, 12:55:47 PM
Maybe the Forums resident "Wordsmith",  Richard,  should weigh in on this matter.
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: Faawrenchbndr on September 07, 2012, 04:02:22 PM
Damn,......guess I need to find a new place to hang.
Ya all need some prunes.
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: tracker on September 07, 2012, 05:53:55 PM

Shucks, I thought we were just starting to have some fun with this one.
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: Richard S on September 07, 2012, 05:57:39 PM
Maybe the Forums resident "Wordsmith",  Richard,  should weigh in on this matter.

From Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Tenth Edition.

Welder : n (ca. 1828) : One that welds: as a or wel-dor : one whose work is welding b : a machine used in welding
 

See also:
http://www.hobartwelders.com/weldtalk/archive/index.php/t-18806.html

Lay your money down and take your choice.
 ;D
Title: Re: Recoil Springs - pic info .....
Post by: Richard S on September 11, 2012, 05:58:50 PM
I guess the Bros Rohrbaugh do not rate this spring with the same importance they do the mainspring. ... ::) ::)

Leeyn:

I just noticed your post. To what spring do you refer -- the assembly's captive inner spring or its outer main spring?  In any event the R9's outer (main) spring is performing some seriously heavy work during recoil. After all, this is a 13-oz pistol chambered for the 9mm Parabellum cartridge. You don't have the intertia of a 1911, for example, to help control recoil forces.

Since one can purchase a mainspring for the R9 for less than some places charge for a cup of coffee, why not just buy them by the dozen and change them out every 200 rounds or so? Believe me, there is nothing about an R9 that the Brothers Rohrbaugh do not take seriously since the pistols bear not only their name but also their family crest.

Finally, if I have not previously welcomed you to the Forum, permit me now to do so.