The Rohrbaugh Forum
Miscellaneous => Other Guns => Topic started by: Fud on December 11, 2005, 01:52:32 AM
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Anybody know anything about the Skyy CPX-1
(http://www.skyyindustries.com/two-tone.jpg) (http://www.skyyindustries.com/firearms.html) ?
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It's a knock-off of the Kel-tec P-11. Like the Cobra and one or two other attempts to copy George Kelgren's success, I doubt much will come of it.
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Seems to have some improvements over the P-11 ... has a repeat striker capability and a manual safety.
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I must admit that I have never heard of it but I must admit it looks good and the price point is tempting...
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The company seems to be proud of it; of course, I guess
they all are at first.
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Seems to have some improvements over the P-11 ... has a repeat striker capability and a manual safety.
The KT P-11 and P-40/P-357 have a repeat striker capability. It is the P-32 and P-3AT that do not. In a DAO pistol with a long trigger pull, I see no need for a manual safety -- just one more thing to get in the way (and something to remember to take "off" when the self defense situation arises).
The Skyy uses a propriatary magazine (a 9-round one -- rather than KT's now available 12-rounder), therefore the S&W 59 series magazines will not work in the gun -- neither will the KT magazines.
I see it as no improvement... :P Just someone's attempt to cash in on another's success.
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I see no need for a manual safety -- just one more thing to get in the way (and something to remember to take "off" when the self defense situation arises).
Proper training will take care of that and if someone should grab your gun, a safety can prevent the gun from being used on you. Read a number of reports where this actually happened to LEO -- criminal grabbed their gun and went to shoot and the gun would not fire because the safety was on. The LEO was then either able to grab the gun back and shoot with his BUG.
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I guess you'd want a manual safety on a revolver too -- or, maybe the Rohrbaugh... ::)
Worried about someone getting your gun? Learn retention techniques and carry an HK P7 and you'll get added protection...most BGs know nothing about a squeeze cocker. ;D
I still say the Skyy is no improvement over the KT, just a low production rate clone that will be lucky to survive.
BTW, the VP of Skyy signed on the KT Owner's Group forum -- did not identify who he was, but posed as a "satisfied Skyy customer" -- and started talking up the Skyy. When confronted as to if he had any vested interest in the gun (he was a new poster on the forum), he denied it -- repeatedly.... Until, he was "busted" by TxCajun who found a similar posting from the same guy on a non-gun forum where he openly admitted his position as the VP of the company.
So, you initially asked if anyone knew anything about the Skyy. I know this, they copied the design from George Kelgren -- and a principal of the company (Skyy) went on the web forum of his competitor's owner's group (KTOG), trying to play up his new product -- denied what he was doing, and then got caught. Though the President of Skyy later posted a letter of confession and "reprimand", I say dishonest business practices usually run deeper than any isolated event that comes to light.
It may be a quality product in terms of manufacturing, since it is from a CNC shop. The Autuaga was a quality gun too (a copy of Larry Seecamp's fine pistol). But the Autuaga didn't last long...
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I am always happy to see another gun company pop up. Who knows, these guys may have something to offer. If their MSRP is any indication, they may be undercutting KT on the proces to some degree... or at least keeping them honest. ;)
These guys could be worth a look. Don't rule them out just yet.
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Hope they have to live with the stigma of " Looking like a Kel- Tec."
I never cared for folks that copy, because they can.
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I dont know enought about it to say it is a copy.
Lets face it, most modern companies have copied JMB to some degree. The modern gun designs share a lot in common across the board.
Does it look like a KT? Yes, to some degree. It also looks a little like a Sig or HK to me. There are only so many ways to make a gun. When people come up with unique ideas, they patent them. If not, the market takes care of itself. If Skyy has nothing to offer over a KT (i.e., no better design, price, value, customer service, features, etc.) they probably won't survive.
My only point is that we shouldn't be so quick to dismiss a new gun company that has the guts to make a run of it in today's legal and political climate. Competition is the American way -- it is what keeps prices in line and keep companies pushing for the next best product.
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I'll let you know how it shoots - I'll have one in about a week. ;)
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My point is, it looks like a Kel-Tec.. Many Pistols have distinctive machine cuts in the slide, that could have been another way, and avoid the *Copy* look.
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Mixed thoughts!
I wish new ventures success for most part - folks who take on the market etc. However, am not too sure if it will survive the extant competion - and certainly the boss man's deception hardly warms one to the cause!!! ::)
Guess we'll see. The ocean is large but not all swimmers stay afloat.
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My father-in-law got a Skyy CPX1 a few weeks ago. I put about 50 rounds through it and liked it better than my old P-11. Enough that I registered http://www.SkyyForum.com after shooting it. I'll be getting my hands on one of my own soon and will post a comprehensive review.
My disclaimer, I have no relation with Skyy Industries. I do live in the same area but I have not even met anyone from the company.
I say this because their VP went on another forum pretending to be a "satisfied customer". He got busted, came clean, and apologized.
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I agree Chris, that the market will straighten all this out.
One more thing... And this is not to defend Skyy or anyone there -- I never heard of the gun before getting around to reading this thread today...but...
The internet is a strange place for those who are just getting the hang of it. The (often unfullfilled) promise of total anonymity can be very tempting... I would guess that many of us may have been tempted at times to say things that weren't entirely true when we thought there was no real connection to our real selves. People justify it in their minds by believing that others do it too.
This guy at Skyy wouldn't be the first person to log on and praise themselves or their products or to bid up their own items on eBay.
I am the first one to preach that dishonesty is a character flaw -- and people who are dishonest in one aspect of their life are likely dishonest in others. But, I think that internet foibles among those who don't yet know better may be a bit more excusable. The guy was trying to promote a product he believed in -- he just did it the way wrong way and got caught.
Someone like that may not ever get the benefit of the doubt from me -- but he isn't necessarily dead to me either if he learned from the experience.
Again -- just my two cents.
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There are some businesses that I've found that try to portray themselves as something that they're not - as a means to avoid accountability.
I talked with the President of Skyy Industries today. He brought up about the incident on KTOG and how that was the wrong thing for his VP to do. He apologized on KTOG, which shows he's trying to right the wrong in my opinion.
My basic philosophy is to give everyone a chance to make it right. If a company continues on the same path, after it's been brought to their attention, then I believe they should be exposed as having less than ethical practices.
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It looks pretty good to me. The price $289.95 has much appeal for a 9mm pistol.
It got off to a shaky start with those posts, but I suppose worse things have happened.
If it is reliable, they will sell a ton of them.
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Stogie - welcome :)
Duane, Kevin - on reflection yeah - I guess product enthusiasm and a wish to promote it got the better of the VP.
I certainly can see why he would give it a try - because quite simply - you gotta get the name ''out there'' - bit like us asking folks about the pup - ''Rohrbaugh - never heard of 'em''!!! ;D
Reaching the market does take time, effort and eventually word of mouth gets into the frame and things move on from there.
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Not to be doubtful but the old aphorism pops up, "If it
looks too good to be true, it probably is." We shall soon see
because the proof is always in the pudding. Dialogue only
goes so far with a firearm.
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Stogie - welcome :)
Thanks, love these pocket 9mm pistols. Unfortunately for me the Rohrbaughs are a bit outside my price range.
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I agree Tracker, we will see. I am not sure this gun sounds too good to be true though -- a slightly tweaked P-11 in the same price range. Not a miracle gun by any means -- but maybe another decent affordable carry gun.
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I guess you'd want a manual safety on a revolver too -- or, maybe the Rohrbaugh... ::)
Worried about someone getting your gun? Learn retention techniques and carry an HK P7 and you'll get added protection...most BGs know nothing about a squeeze cocker. ;D
I still say the Skyy is no improvement over the KT, just a low production rate clone that will be lucky to survive.
BTW, the VP of Skyy signed on the KT Owner's Group forum -- did not identify who he was, but posed as a "satisfied Skyy customer" -- and started talking up the Skyy. When confronted as to if he had any vested interest in the gun (he was a new poster on the forum), he denied it -- repeatedly.... Until, he was "busted" by TxCajun who found a similar posting from the same guy on a non-gun forum where he openly admitted his position as the VP of the company.
So, you initially asked if anyone knew anything about the Skyy. I know this, they copied the design from George Kelgren -- and a principal of the company (Skyy) went on the web forum of his competitor's owner's group (KTOG), trying to play up his new product -- denied what he was doing, and then got caught. Though the President of Skyy later posted a letter of confession and "reprimand", I say dishonest business practices usually run deeper than any isolated event that comes to light.
It may be a quality product in terms of manufacturing, since it is from a CNC shop. The Autuaga was a quality gun too (a copy of Larry Seecamp's fine pistol). But the Autuaga didn't last long...
You are obviously aware of some political issues with the Skyy owners/management and the Kel-Tec folks that I know nothing about -- nor do I want to know anything about. My interest is in the firearm. Is it safe? Is it accurate? Is it reliable? I want something that I can carry around my property when I'm cutting grass, when I'm shoveling snow, when I'm digging in the garden, etc. For me, my Rohrbaugh is for deep concealment around the office -- not in the backyard.
As far as manual safeties are concerned ... yes, I prefer manual safeties on gun. When I received my training at the academy over two decades ago, it was with a pistol that had a manual safety. I carried S&W auto-loaders with manual safeties for nearly a quarter of a century. It's hard for an old dog to learn new tricks.
And I would prefer that the R9 came with a manual safety. I even discussed this with Eric when I was buying my first R9 and assured him of another sale if he came out with a version that had a manual safety. He told me that wasn't likely to happen.
Manual safeties ... It comes down to personal preference. The fact that the Skyy has one and the P-11 doesn't, is a plus for Skyy in MY book. The fact that I use to own a P-3AT and it wouldn't chamber a single round by itself no matter what type of ammo used is a mark against Kel-Tec in my book.
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Interestingly too, if the post on KTOG is to be believed, George Kelgren is not too bent out of shape over this copy...so why should anyone else be?
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My disclaimer, I have no relation with Skyy Industries. I do live in the same area but I have not even met anyone from the company.
I say this because their VP went on another forum pretending to be a "satisfied customer". He got busted, came clean, and apologized.
Interesting that your first two -- and only -- posts on the Rohrbaugh forum, are in response to the Skyy... but welcome just the same.
I agree, the market will sort things out. The use of a proprietary magazine with less capacity and the Skyy's 3 ounce (17 for the Skyy and 14 for the P-11) heavier weight will make the CPX-1 a tough competitor to the KT... Especially if the only real "improvement" is the addition of the manual safety.
I'll be interested to see some photos of the gun's internals when one of you takes possession of your example -- to see what exactly all of the improvements may be.
Edit to Add: Brian, the infamous Skyy VP, recommends to a CPX-1 owner experiencing FTEs and FTFs with standard WWB ammo to "use only American Eagle ammo for practice and Federals for carry".....now, I'd say THAT is a real improvement over the KT! ;D
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Here's a link to an auction for one on Gunbroker:
http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?item=41217178
It shows pics of different angles of the gun.
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Decent looking gun. The muzzle and the rear of the slide show KT influence as well.
Aside from the fact it seemingly doesn't need a safety, the operation of the safety looks unusual to me. Good that it presses down (unless you like slide mounted safeties), but the angle seems odd. Hard to tell until you press it, I guess.
I agree that the proprietary mags isn't as nice as the KT interchangeability with S&W mags. I wonder how much Skyy will be asking for them?
I think that limited ammo selection is less of a problem with a real speciality gun like the Seecamp or R-9. Since the KT digests most anything, one would think the Skyy should too.
Looking forward to seeing one for myself.
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I'll be interested to see some photos of the gun's internals when one of you takes possession of your example -- to see what exactly all of the improvements may be.
Well, before I get it, I wanna find out if the gun is accuarte and reliable. Which is why I started this thread to see if anybody has heard anything.
Did some looking around and based of some posts over at THR, it appears that there might be some serious reliability issues with this gun.
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THere is a lot of info accruing at the Skyy forum -- www.skyyforum.com
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Have you seen this ?? Read it all , it's interesting
http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=2505;action=display;num=1132099080;start=30
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Quite interesting.
I bet the President wishes he knew about that whole incident sooner.
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Not only Copying, but Bad Mouthing what they are Copying. I wonder if they are not EX- employees of Kel-Tec ?? Seem to know a lot about Manufacturing Procedure.
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Very interesting. The VP sure got caught.
I'll be looking forward to hearing user reports about this "new" pistol.
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http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=2505;action=display;num=1132099080;start=30
Well, that certainly was an interesting read. Reminds me of something that happened to me a few years ago ...
I was a technical manager for a major telecommunications company and we signed an exclusive contract with a major computer company. I'm not mentioning any names because I can't prove and I don't want to be sued for liable.
But anyway, part of the terms of the contract was that if we could reproduce a problem on demand in an independent environment (which is rather hard to do), the computer company would provide a fix within five business days or suffer a financial penality (we would get X number of freebies and X was in the hundreds).
We day my team found and isolated a problem. We turned it over to the company requesting the fix within five business days as per the terms of the contract.
On the fifth day we received a magnetic tape with the fix on it. We installed it and discovered that the tape was blank.
THEM: "Gee, it worked fine in our lab. It must have got erased by a magnetic field during shipping. Unfortunately we didn't keep a copy of the fix so we have to treat this as a new problem and we'll get it to you in five days as stated in the contract."
Hmmm ::) sounded sort of fishy to me. A few months later we isolated another problem and guess what? The tape with the fix on it also got erased by a magnetic field. :o
Yeah right. ::) It was just their underhanded way of not delivering on what they agreed to.
For some reason, reading that thread over there reminded me of this story. From that point forward, I never trusted that computer company again and after reading that thread, I'm not so sure if I trust that company either.
Of course, that doesn't mean that they have a bad product but it does raise reasons for concern and gives me something to think before making a purchase.
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George Kelgren has apparently stated that he is not aware of anyone in management over there being an ex-Kel-Tec employee. He acknowledges though that they could employ some low level type CNC machinists that used to work for KT since the geography is close.
I shouldn't say anything else that could be viewed as "supporting" Skyy because I am being lambasted on other forums for "sticking up" for them.
For the record -- I am just trying to be open minded and get the facts out. I have no opinion one way or the other about the company or the product (having not seen one or touched one), other than the fact that the first forray at internet marketing (whether planned by the company or the individual) was an ill-advised scheme that will haunt them for a while.
Interesting too to note that Kelgren himself is not crying foul or claiming any infrigement or theft of trade secrets.
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I shouldn't say anything else that could be viewed as "supporting" Skyy because I am being lambasted on other forums for "sticking up" for them.
It's ok, cause I'm sure I'm percieved as "having it out" for Skyy. I have enjoyed meeting and doing business with Marty, Valerie, and some of the other great people at Kel Tec -- so, I am somewhat protective of their efforts. The P-32 and P-3AT were a big catalyst in the modern day interest in the pocket pistol. Reading of Skyy's plans to "introduce" a .380 makes me expect what gun it will resemble.
I felt the same way about the KT "clones" from Cobra and Standard Arms made an entry -- but they never developed a following.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/flyandscuba/standardsa9.jpg)
Standard Arms
Granted, the Skyy appears -- at least cosmetically -- better than the other copies, but I wonder what the feelings of forum members would be if someone took an R9 and a set of calipers and started cranking out "new and improved" copies of the Rohrbaugh?
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I hear ya, Fly. But -- being out to get the new guy is usually the more popular point of view.
How would I feel if someone copied the R-9? Well, first I am not sure if the R-Bros have any patents or legally protectable interest in the current R-9 technology. That would obviously make a difference. Illegal is illegal.
Absent that -- if someone else made an R-9 copy that was as good -- with as good a quality materials -- for a lot less money -- I would probably own one.
I would expect some R-9 owners to be put out. Natural reaction. On the other hand, I wouldn't chastize Kel-Tec owners for not sharing in their rage. We all have our favorite products and that colors our perceptions -- but that doesn't mean everyone who doesn't see things that way is an "idiot."
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I've posted a stack of pictures of a CPX-1 and P-11 side-by-side and stacked at: http://www.skyyforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=109#109
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I don't see any photos.
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I don't want to engage anyone on this, but just put forth a thought. In copying anything, the copier has a free head start. . The originator of the item being copied has spent many hours developing the entire concept, and because it is not illegal, it's OK to take it. [?]
This Skyy thing is FOUL, there is more than just a slight resemblance here.
Think it's great? That's OK, But I don't see it that way.
Just my opinion.
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Sounds like what people used to say about Taurus. They bought old S&W equipment and started cranking up S&W clones. Then Beretta clones. Then KT clones? ??? Now apparently 1911 clones. ;)
Over time they started actually thinking for themselves, improving quality and innovating. Now they are a pretty respected operation. I still prefer the S&W stuff, but Taurus is not bad and is a good value for the money.
Hell, there is a whole industry based on cloning JMB's 1911 design. And how many clones are there of the CZ-75 type guns. What is a Rossi? Aren't Bersa guns just cheap foreign copies of other guns?
I hear the whole "copy" thing -- but its nothing new under the sun.
What about computers? IBM PCs couldn't compete with "clones" after a while. Should be boycott Dell? Or should we congratulate Steve Jobs for figuring out a way to keep the Apple propriety stuff for himself?
To me, the real evil in cloning is when you try to trick the consumer into buying a product thinking it is somehting else -- designer watches, purses, knives perhaps -- but that is clearly illegal.
Darn... I told myself I was going to shut up on this issue. :-X
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I also am for cloning. Absolutely. The more choices, the better.
Like Duane, I just do not want to be tricked into believing the object is an original.
It's something of a surprise that the Kel-Tec products are being cloned.
What we really need is a Glock 9mm clone reduced to the same size as our R9S.
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I don't see any photos.
(http://www.skyyforum.com/files/all_side_109.gif)
(http://www.skyyforum.com/files/side_141.jpg)
more at http://www.skyyforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=109#109
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So, what's your point? The P-11, P-10, and P-12 were all designed by George Kelgren....first when he ran Grendel firearms and then when he started Kel-tec.
The P-10 was the first, using an internal 10-round magazine, loaded from the top with the slide in the locked back position. He improved the design at customer's request by making the addition of a removable 12-round magazine in the P-12. Both the P-10 and P-12 used the low mass hammer - powered by a coiled hammer spring. If an owner ever made the mistake of releasing the tension of the spring during an ill-advised detail strip, they'd never get it back together because it took a special tool (I know, I made that mistake).
The P-11 design used the same low mass hammer -- but this time with a spring running down the backstrap and retained with a roll pin near the magazine well. From the disassembled photos I've seen of the Skyy -- it uses the identical arrangement.
It only confirms the position that The Skyy is a copy of George Kelgren's design efforts. ::)
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So, what's your point? The P-11, P-10, and P-12 were all designed by George Kelgren....first when he ran Grendel firearms and then when he started Kel-tec...
I'm making no point by providing these pictures. It's simply a properly scaled lineup of them. I offer no conclusions but provide this at the request of others.
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Thanks for the photos.
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Nice pictures, StogieC.
That new clone looks pretty good to me.
Despite the very poor start by the "VP", I think it deserves a second look.
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I also am for cloning. Absolutely. The more choices, the better.
I'm puzzled by all this design copying stuff. It's happened in the guitar world for ages. There were Japanese copies of some guitars that were so good, that the original manufacturer sued the cloners because they (the original mfg.) couldn't make a guitar as good as their competition. The point I'm making is that there are only so many ways a guitar/gun/knife/insert your fetish here, can look.
One notable guitar maker, Gibson, sued a little manufacturer (Paul Reed Smith-PRS), for copying their design. It was pathetic, Gibson claiming that this ONE manufacturer, PRS, was cloning their products. No self respecting Gibson owner would confuse a Gibson for a PRS, and millions of guitars that looked like their precious Les Paul already exist, but they picked on PRS, because it's a great product. Gibson won originally but lost in the end. I will never buy another new Gibson as a result of this fiasco. I lost all respect for them and they lost a customer in me. Tsk. Tsk...
Steve
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Here's a group of pics posted on GlockTalk.
http://www.ronscorner.net/Skyy/
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Skyy has agreed to provide me with a demo gun for review in Concealed Carry Magazine. I plan to give this gun a work-out and see how it stacks up. More to come...
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How do you go about submitting an article for publication? I've got a lot of nice things to say about the Colt Pocket Nine ...
(http://fud-files.netfirms.com/image/private/guns/f163.jpg)
... even though it's been several years since it's been produced, it was ahead of it's time and NIB models are still popping up for sale on the web. The gun was definitely a sleeper.
Skyy should consider cloning the Pocket Nine.
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Manuscript submission guidelines are on the website, but I am not sure they would publish a review for a gun not in current production -- but I could be wrong.
http://www.concealedcarrymag.com
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Duane,
Did you get the demo yet? Just wondering your thoughts...
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Not yet... Should be soon. Apparently the Skyy guns are backordered a bit.
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My Skyy CPX-1 touched down today... ;)
First impressions are very positive. More info to come, although I'll have save the meat of my comments for CCM!