The Rohrbaugh Forum
Miscellaneous => Other Guns => Topic started by: Michigunner on August 28, 2006, 03:08:42 PM
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I've been running around town with my new 1911 "cocked and locked".
Actually, there is an empty chamber, with the Wilson magazine loaded with eight rounds.
If the empty chamber doesn't blow my leg off within a few days, I'll go live.
My hat is off to all the brave souls who have been doing it.
Bill
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Bill, you will be just fine.
Tom
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Bill,
Please go with a round in the chamber right now. You don't need to have to say to a bad guy, "give me a second while I cock this thing". Yeah, I know that you are carrying with the hammer back even with an empty chamber to make the motion of chambering a round faster and easier but you get my drift. Just don't forget to HIT THE SAFETY!
Mike
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Bill:
Robert Boatman has said it better than I could do in his article, "COCKED AND LOCKED," in Concealed Carry Magazine:
[size=10]Condition One.
Cocked and locked. Chamber loaded, hammer cocked, thumb safety on. This requires you to snick the safety down before firing and snick it back up when you're finished, a test of manual dexterity that can be learned by any creature equipped with opposing thumbs and probably by a few equipped with paws or hooves instead.
A 1911 in Condition One is comparable to a Glock, which is always in a semi-cocked condition when a round is in the chamber anyway, and the initial pull of the "small trigger" performs the same function as the thumb safety of a 1911. It's also comparable to any variety of double-action auto with the safety off, as the trigger pull cocks the hammer and fires the gun in one single motion, though the long and cumbersome double-action trigger pull is designed neither for control nor accuracy.
The greatest benefit of cocked-and-locked carry in a 1911, besides instant readiness, is the excellent trigger control it makes possible since the only job the trigger must perform is to simply drop the hammer. No other type of semiautomatic can provide the precise and consistent trigger pull of a 1911, a trigger pull as fine as can be achieved with the best revolvers, readily available to the shooter with the thumbing down of the safety lever.
Condition One is obviously the fastest way to get your 1911 into action, the least prone to mistakes, the most direct path to precise trigger control, and by far the safest way to carry and operate the gun. It is, therefore, the only way.
That John Browning intended the 1911 to be carried in Condition One is evidenced by the fact that a major feature of the gun is the thumb safety. There is no earthly use for the thumb safety - the part doesn't even function unless the hammer is cocked. It should also be noted that the up/safe, down/fire operation of the single-action 1911 thumb safety is natural, intuitive and proper.[/size]
The entire article can be found reprinted here by permission of Concealed Carry Magazine:
http://www.smartcarry.com/cocklock.htm
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Thanks for the good thoughts, everyone.
I'm still in the Kimber-mandated 400-500 round break-in period using 230 grain Full Metal Jacket.
I guess it wouldn't hurt to temporarily put FMJ in the chamber, and hope it wouldn't go through the bad person.
Mike, I was only trying to get used to the idea of the 1911 cocked and locked. I'll have a round in there pretty darn quick.
I hope you guys are doing it, too. I don't want to be the only person.
Bill
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Bill,
You will have no problems as long as this is going to be your carry gun and you do not swap out different guns on a regular basis. This has to be your only carry gun so that hitting the safety is instinctive, every time. Just remember when you draw to HIT THAT SAFETY or you could be in for a very bad encounter with a bad guy.
I still don't know how you guys manage to conceal carry an 1911. I am 5' 10" , 150lbs and even with my shirt untucked I feel very conspecuous with anything larger than say the R9S. You guys may think you are incogneto but I bet many more people spot you than you think.
Mike
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Mike,
My secret is a brand new Milt Sparks 60TK.
The 1911 rides high at 3 o'clock. I mean it is stealthy.
Moreover, it is pulled in flat and tight against the body. Very comfortable. I don't even know it's there.
Lightning Arms Sport had mine delivered in two days.
Bill
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Bill,
If cocked and locked makes you nervous, talk to Matt Del Fatti about the holster he made for my 1911. Instead of a sweat shield, it has a reinforced tab that fits under the thumb safety and holds it in the on safe position. Also look into the Cylinder & Slide SFS system that Richard is using.
If you don't have an ambi safety, the sweat shield may totally prevent anything from wiping off the safety until the gun is drawn.
Mike,
Your size is not much different from mine (5' 8" tall, 175 lb., 34" waist, 42" chest). I carry at 3:30 (belt buckle is 12:00). In this position, a 15 degree cant will keep the end of the grip close to my side as I bend at the waist. Any more angle, and it becomes difficult to grab the gun. I use less angle (5 degrees) with more compact guns. I also use belt loops that are spaced far apart so that the gun stays at this angle.
That, with a sturdy belt and well-chosen clothing, hides the gun pretty well. My cell phone bulges far more than the gun. Still, it isn't my first choice when I really need to be discreet.
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I forgot to mention that my untucked shirt is one size too large. That puts my mind at ease.
Bill
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Thanks for the good thoughts, everyone.
I'm still in the Kimber-mandated 400-500 round break-in period using 230 grain Full Metal Jacket.
I guess it wouldn't hurt to temporarily put FMJ in the chamber, and hope it wouldn't go through the bad person.
Mike, I was only trying to get used to the idea of the 1911 cocked and locked. I'll have a round in there pretty darn quick.
I hope you guys are doing it, too. I don't want to be the only person.
Bill
Bill - don't worry about "cocked and locked" - you'll be fine. My brother has carried a Kimber 4" Compact Stainless "cocked and locked" for awhile and really likes it and has put thousands of rounds through the gun. He carrys it concealed most of the year.
My brother did accidentally shot himself but relax - it was with a Glock.
Below is my Kimber 4" Compact that I've posted before. In truth I'm still a small gun carry guy - R9 and Seecamp. The Kimber with the night sights (may put on a laser grip sight also) is my house protection gun. Also with coyotes around I take it outside some times at night when the dog goes out.
The Kimber is very accurate and easy to shot. I don't worry about the 500 round break in Kimber lists. I feel it is ok to carry JHP in it after a few boxes of FMJ. I may try carrying the Kimber more in cold weather - the R9 is a powerful gun though and has me spoiled.
Dave
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b216/melissa1948/P1000877.jpg)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b216/melissa1948/P1010010-2.jpg)
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Mountainman,
Geez, going out at night with the dog with Coyotes around and for a house defense gun, wouldn't something like a Mossberg 590 fit the bill a little better? Don't get me wrong, carry the pistol too but a short shotgun is the best home and property defense arm and critter gitter!
My opinions only, Mike
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Mike - you're right about the shotgun being the best overall house gun - outside though don't want to take the chance of hitting my own dog using a shotgun if he is trying to fight off the pack of coyotes we have howling some nights. I figure a 1911 with laser sights should do the trick.
Haven't had an encounter with them yet and it may never happen.
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Yeah, I may stop the FMJ break-in at 200 rounds. It's getting to be too much. It works perfectly now.
I may declare the JHP confirmation successful after shooting 15 Golden Sabers and 15 Hyra-Shok.
Premium factory rounds are so good, this should be OK if the gun doesn't burp early on.
I'll pull out the new Wilson Combat 8-round magazine and validate it with all the test rounds.
Dave, I don't like those serrations near the Kimber muzzle. They are pretty tough on the holster. Time for the file to come out.
Bill
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Bill,
I couldn't wait for Matt's holster. He has other people in the queue.
I feel pretty safe with the 'cocked and locked' business. I consider it much safer than the Glock I had.
Bill
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Dave, I don't like those serrations near the Kimber muzzle. They are pretty tough on the holster. Time for the file to come out.
Bill
Bill - what model Kimber do you have. The CDP II of mine is as smooth as a baby's bum.
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Dave, that is a beautiful pistol you have. I like those wood grips.
Mine is a Custom Stainless Target II. I added Goncalo Alves wood grips from Hogue.
The serrations are somewhat smooth on the end, but do disturb the holster too much for my liking.
It's no big deal if the sewing does not break. That should be unlikely.
Bill
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I don't like those serrations near the Kimber muzzle. They are pretty tough on the holster. Time for the file to come out.
Bill:
The thought of taking a file to that beautiful Kimber hurts me to contemplate it! If you would like to have it "melted," one of the better custom shops has the equipment to do that. Just be careful that you don't ruin a beautiful $1,000 pistol for the sake of a beautiful $100 holster. Besides, after the pistol has "made its mark" on the holster, you can maintain the holster with quality dye and wax. (I prefer Fiebing's Dye and Renaissance Wax for the purpose.)
As for C&L carry, another source of comfort is that your Kimber is equipped with a high-rise beavertail grip safety which provides an entirely separate level of security.
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Thanks, Richard.
I just received a melting estimate for $60.00, which includes return shipping. I'm thinking of staying put for a while, and see if the wear has stablized.
Money doesn't grow on trees, you know. :D
Good point about the high-rise beavertail grip safety. Obviously, the grip safety is absolutely critical, but I had not considered the merits of the beavertail business.
Do you understand how it improves safety?
Actually, I looked it up on a 1911 forum where they said:
Increases the area over which recoil is spread which reduces the pounding of the web of your hand; eliminates hammer bite, and allows you to get a higher grip on the gun without being bit by the slide. Also provides for a more consistent grip, resulting in greater accuracy.
Bill
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I should also mention that my Variant 1 HK USP Compact .45 can be carried "cocked and locked".
One big problem. It does not have a grip safety. So I wonder if many people actually carry that way.
I have not carried it cocked, but do prefer the single-action trigger.
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Bill:
The beavertail is just to prevent the slide from cutting the shooter's hand during firing. (Some of the older Walthers were notorious for "biting the hands that fed them.") As for the two external safeties on your Kimber, until they are disengaged, the thumb safety blocks movement of the slide and the sear while the grip safety blocks movement of the trigger. The combination of the two combined with the internal safety mechanisms (disconnector, hammer safety stop, inertia firing pin, and integral firing pin block) makes for an extremely safe and reliable weapon.
Some 1911-type pistols, such as the Browning HP and the Colt Mustang, do not have grip safeties. While some people carry such weapons "cocked and locked," I personally choose not to do so. For me, a grip safety is essential for carrying a single-action pistol in Condition One. It's just the way I was trained by a grizzled old sergeant many years ago.
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Hi All:
New around here, although I've lurked for a while; trying to decide if the Pup is the right carry weapon for me. Currently carry a KT P3-AT when size is critical or a Kimber Utra Carry II when possible.
I put a few miles on the motorcycle when I can, and somethig small is critical in that case. The KT has been reliable thus far, but a .380 of any make leaves me less than confident.
I'm learning a lot about Rohrbaugh's offerings from this knowledgeable group, and like the idea of a quality firearm that should last for years with a little TLC. Thanks to you all!
Currently have a Kimber Ultra RCP (Refined Carry Pistol) that has a factory melt job, shortened beavertail, a sight channel in place of standard sights and several other features designed to enhance carry. I'll post a picture when it arrives in a couple of weeks.
Anyway - wanted to introduce myself and thank you all for what I've already learned!
Greg
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Greg:
Welcome! Glad to have you claim your seat at the campfire.
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Greg, welcome to the forum.
tom
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Welcome Greg - join in often.
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Hi Greg and welcome - hope you have had a chance to browse broadly - as there is much to glean.
Also if not done - peruse my FAQ site (url in sig line) - which will cover quite a bit too.
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Thanks for the welcome guys - I think I've explored every nook and cranny of the site; the enthusiasm expressed in these pages for the R9 is certainly compelling even with the relatively high price of these guns.
I'm currently trying to decide between three guns with different characteristics:
Kel-Tec PF9; not available yet, but based on the P11 and P3-AT so likely to be a reliable weapon after breakin
Kahr PM9 - higher quality standards generally than the Kel-Tecs but have heard some issues with the PM9 and PM40s.
R9 - high quality, but maybe some durability questions in my mind due to tight tolerances, etc. And of course highest prices of the lot.
Any words of wisdom?
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Greg:
Of the three, I would say your choice should depend on the purpose for which you will be using the gun. If you will be wanting a pistol to use for frequent and prolonged practice sessions at the range, the Khar PM9 has a great trigger and should be good for as many rounds as you want to expend. If you will be wanting a personal defense weapon capable of deep concealment, either the PF9 or the R9 would fill that role. As for price, the PF9 will go for a little over $300 while the R9 will be about three times that much. Do you want a Ford or a Ferrari? ;)
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Greg,
Welcome to the forum. Please come back often.
I enjoyed my Kahr PM9, but think it is too large for normal pocket carry. It just stuck out like a sore thumb and was heavy, too.
I ended up carrying it in an Ex Companion from Milt Sparks. However, if it were to do over again, I would use a belt holster instead, either the 55BN or 60TK.
I also had P3AT and R9S. They both worked perfectly for me.
Bill
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Greg,
I owned a Kahr K9 along time ago and thought the trigger was abismal, anyway the other down side to the Kahr(in my opinion) is due to it's construction IF you were to get a failure to fire on the round in the chamber for whatever reason you would have to rack the slide and insert a new round in order to reset the fireing pin. You can't do multiple strikes on the same chambered round. This may be nitpicky but it was one of the reasons I traded mine off. I think this is not a good trait in a gun that your life may depend on. This downside can also be attributed to all single actions except you could recock the hammer on a single action but it would be just as fast to rack the slide unless of course you did not have BOTH HANDS FREE to use at the time.
My opinions only, Mike
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Greg,
Another option is Kel-Tec which will have their new PF-9 9mm out anytime now.
The Kel-Tec forum people will be discussing the reliability, I'm sure.
Of course, it would not be in the same league as the R9.
Bill
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I was in the same place about a year and a half ago. I surmised the Kel-Tec was junk after reading up on them and inspecting several first hand. I then set out to by a Kahr PM9. I found a dealer that had the Kahr and to my surprise the Rohrbaugh R9 in stock. I compared both guns together and found the R9 being smaller was easier to carry. The PM9 is hard to pocket carry. I have carried daily for almost 20 years and found out size and weight are big factors because carrying a gun is a hassle. I have had no problems from my R9 and I believe most of the problems I have heard users having are due to operator error. The R9 is not for everyone.
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Greg,
I'm sorry about bring up the PF-9 again. I missed the post where you talked about it.
Bill
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bigyimmy,
I must strongly disagree with your statement that "and I believe most of the problems I have heard users having are due to operator error". The evidence(evidence does not equal facts), indicate that for some reason some R9's are more tempremental or finicky than others. I can only surmise that this is due to something in the materials used and/or something in the manufacturing process.
The number of Rohrbaughs produced is still relatively small. I hope that as production continues that a more consistant performing pistol will emerge.
Mike
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I base my opinion on the following belief. I see people expecting the gun to fire thousands of rounds, to fire un-recommended ammunition, be maintained in by un-recommended methods, held in un-recommended fashion while shooting, and then to top it off some people can not do basic assemble or disassemble of the firearm. This gun is not for everyone. It has specific and limited use and people get in trouble when they try to use it or adapt it for their use outside of design parameters. Then you have some people who mess with the gun until they get it so it will not work. Accept it for what it is and one will be fine. This gun is not fool proof.
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And I agree with that also.
Tom
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All -
Thank you so much for the replies - this is exactly what I was looking for, and will definitely help me reach my decision. I'm one of those that cleans and cares for a handgun regularly - can't expect it to do it's job when needed if I don't take care of it.
Learned this after leaving one too many of my Dad's tools out in the rain in my youth :o Strange how that happens - now that he's gone I realize how many of his characteristics I've adopted over the years.
Anyway - did not mean to completely hijack this great thread that was talking about carrying a 1911 cocked and locked (yes that does take some getting used to).
Fired the Kel-Tec P3-AT for the first time this morning - about 40 rounds and 'BANG' every time. Very long trigger pull; guess I have to get used to these DAO handguns :D
Bill - I agree with you on the PF9; don't think it will be in the same league as the R9 in terms of quality.
One related query on the dependability of the R9 - will the DLC coating on the new Stealth models increase reliability? There's a mention of anti-galling properties on the web site and I wondered if galling was currently an issue with the stainless slides and aluminum frames.
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One related query on the dependability of the R9 - will the DLC coating on the new Stealth models increase reliability? There's a mention of anti-galling properties on the web site and I wondered if galling was currently an issue with the stainless slides and aluminum frames.
In real estate it's "location." With the R9, or any handgun with similarly minimal tolerances, it's "lubrication." I personally prefer SuperLube and Ballistol.
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Greg - without trying to muddy the waters - and talking about smaller 9mm's - I have just bought this from a guy on another board - the first extra gun I have bought in ages.
I am thinking actually it might finish up with my wife to replace her Thunder .380 - if she can like it enough. Now, PM9 it ain't - it is bigger and heavier but - as a compact 9mm I am impressed and find these Bersa's great value.
Just throwing it into the pot ;)
(http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/thr/cb_gun2/uc9-573-s.jpg)
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Chris,
That's looks like a fine gun. I didn't realize Bersa had that model.
Thanks for the picture. I'm going to check out the size on Bersa's web site.
Is it almost as small as the R9S?
Bill
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Chris:
¡Felicitaciones! Su Bersa es una pistola muy preciso y fiable, y tiene la mejor relación costo-calidad. :D
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Thanks for the good thoughts, everyone.
I'm still in the Kimber-mandated 400-500 round break-in period using 230 grain Full Metal Jacket.
Bill
Bill,
You need to shoot more. With most of my guns I've reached 400-500 rounds within 2 range sessions. Those 1911s are meant to be shot alot - not like the R9. They seem to improve as the round count increases too.
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Chris,
Thanks for muddying the waters! Best looking Bersa I've seen - I was not aware of this model either. Like most of you here I have the desire/need to carry at times when size and weight is an issue; seems to me the 'Mouse that Roars' has many benefits, and few negative attributes for a gun of this size and firepower.
I'll contact Tom and see what inventory levels are like these days, and I believe I saw another post indicating the Stealth models are now available, so I think I'm there - now it's all details! Tom - expect a PM or email from me shortly.
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Bill - no the UC9 Bersa is far from small when compared with the pup - I cannot put them in the same category at all. Nothing really beats the pup for pocket rocket status.
However, for those who have any carry space to spare without going to quite full size, it does have a place. It is when fully charged quite heavy too - 2 lbs with a 13 round mag in place and feels in the hand very substantial.
This gun is a double stacker so - with std mag 10+1 and the optional 13 rounder then 13+1 - quite something!