Miscellaneous => Other Guns => Topic started by: Craigt on December 29, 2010, 06:18:45 AM
Title: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: Craigt on December 29, 2010, 06:18:45 AM
Any thoughts on what gun makes a good range practice stand-in for the R-9? 25 to 50 rounds from the R-9 in one session is plenty for me.
I have been looking into 22LR for the obvious reason of least expensive ammo.
The Sig Mosquito looks very good as does the Walther P22 but both of these are larger than the R-9 and are DA/SA. I would prefer to use a SA only if possible.
If the sights were removed from the Sig the profile of the slide is similar to the R-9 (no sights) helping to provide a similar sight picture. The Walther is rather different in contour.
I was looking at a used Beretta Bobcat. Small. Looks like good quality. The sights are small. Still DA/SA.
What do you folks use for range practice? Do you try to use a gun with similar size and operation to the R-9? Or just use whatever you have available?
Any thoughts on techniques and specific practice guns is most appreciated.
Craig T.
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: Richard S on December 29, 2010, 08:39:21 AM
Craig:
After running a magazine through my R9 just to maintain familiarity, I'll use this NAA Guardian .380 as the "stand-in" for extended DAO range practice. It's built like a tank, will run as long as I have .380 ACP ammo with me and care to keep loading magazines, and saves wear and tear on my highly prized EDC weapon.
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: Craigt on December 29, 2010, 08:55:32 AM
Always love seeing your photos Richard! Thanks for the thoughts.
I have a Colt Pony .380 that I carried for years. Almost the exact size as the R9. That might be the best range stand-in. Just researching a bit further in case there is something better.
Last time I shot the Pony the recoil spring was so weak it would not properly cycle the slide so it does need a little work. The trigger pull is very high but it is DAO. If I remove the rear sight it has a rounded profile on top similar to the R9.
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: Richard S on December 29, 2010, 10:17:18 AM
Craig:
I almost purchased a Colt Pony DAO some years ago but went with a Mustang single-action instead. Should have purchased both.
Numrich currently has in stock three (3) recoil springs for the single-action Pony but lists none for the DAO version. I frankly don't know whether the two models use the same recoil spring, but at $4.50 it might be worth a shot (pun intended ;) ).
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: tracker on December 29, 2010, 11:18:47 PM
Craig T.
The Sig Mosquito is unacceptable to me because I bought one and returned it for a trade the next week. The trigger is too rough and it is just not very good quality. On the other hand, the Beretta Bobcat is first rate and I highly recommend it. Also, another excellent .22 choice is the Ruger Mark II or the Mark III if you can't find the Mark II. The main difference between the two Rugers is in takedown and reassembly.
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: Craigt on December 30, 2010, 05:46:24 AM
Richard, I was looking in my supply drawers and found that I had purchased several sets of Wolff springs. Forgot about them. Looks like the Pony is ready to go.
Tracker, Thanks for the input. Sure is disappointing that a Sig would be anything less than perfect.
Is the Mark II easier to takedown than the Mark III? I like the Ruger but keep hearing that it is quite difficult to takedown for cleaning.
I am still interested in purchasing a .22 so any further thoughts are most welcomed.
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: tracker on December 30, 2010, 10:57:28 AM
Yes, the takedown and reassembly of the MKII is easier than the MKIII but they are both difficult.
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: yankee2500 on December 30, 2010, 11:04:07 AM
You may want to check out the Walther P-22, I have been happy with mine and they are pretty affordable.
John
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: kjtrains on December 30, 2010, 11:21:29 AM
Craig. I use a Glock 33, a .357 Sig compact for practice, and yes, just because I have it. It acts like an R9 on steroids; has a little more kick, however, I like stuff with power. I also have .22's and like shooting them; tracker and John makes good suggestions on those.
I do understand your interest in a .22. I take mine along to the range and the woodpile along with the big stuff.
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: tracker on December 31, 2010, 10:46:04 AM
Here is an interesting range surrogate option that has generated a lot of conversation. I don't own one but it does pique my interest.
http://cheaperthandirt.com/blog/?p=842
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: theirishguard on December 31, 2010, 11:03:30 AM
why not try a Rohrbaugh K380 in .380acp, same size, shape & etc., only softer recoil. Tom
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: kjtrains on December 31, 2010, 11:11:16 AM
PMR 30. Very interesting, indeed and 30 rd. magazines. I like it.
Interesting but as an inexpensive to shoot stand in for the pup there is not much of a cost savings on ammo like the OP was looking for. 22mag ammo is $10 - $13+ for 50 rounds. I think if you are going with something other than a 22LR you may as well go with the same caliber as the pup, you can get a Kel tec P-11 NIB for $199 as opposed to paying $575 for a 22mag :o. JMO :D
John
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: kjtrains on December 31, 2010, 12:51:08 PM
I know, but I was speaking for myself, as being interesting; guess I was being selfish. ;)
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: yankee2500 on December 31, 2010, 01:14:02 PM
It's hard to justify the cost of the mag vs the LR for paper punching, especially in a pistol. Shooting larger varmints or long range shooting there is a definite advantage to the mag. That's just me and to each his own.
John
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: kjtrains on December 31, 2010, 01:19:59 PM
Again, just speaking for myself, I like it. Probably won't get one, but it has somewhat of an intrique, for me. As for the OP; I would stick with a .22LR for the inexpense.
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: tracker on December 31, 2010, 03:19:20 PM
One can buy a 50 rd. box of .22 wmr for $7 in quantity and is quite a different shooting experience than a .22 lr. Most people wouldn't shoot more than 150 rds, or so in a session. I knew this one would stir up some discussion and that is one reason I posted it.
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: tracker on December 31, 2010, 03:43:49 PM
Perhaps another surrogate option is buy a .22 conversion for whatever you have like a Glock, Sig, or 1911. There are many available similar to this one.
http://home.comcast.net/~shooter2_indy/aack.html
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: yankee2500 on December 31, 2010, 03:56:39 PM
I had a Ruger Convertible 22 LR/mag. a NAA mini 22LR/mag and a bolt action rifle in 22mag. There all gone. ;D I can get 525rds of the 22LR for $22 as apposed to 150 rds of 22mags for $21 not a hard choice if one is looking for an economical way to practice. :D kj if you don't already have one this would beat the hell out of a 22mag for high capacity fun shooting.
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: kjtrains on December 31, 2010, 05:13:57 PM
John. I've had the ammo for this now for over a year and just haven't gotten around to purchasing the 5.7; the speed of this bullet is something else.
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: yankee2500 on December 31, 2010, 05:55:19 PM
Thats the other end of the spectrum for you, very little recoil, probably why you haven't got it. ;D ;D
John
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: kjtrains on December 31, 2010, 06:44:47 PM
Well, probably, although, the long range power of that speeding bullet is amazing.
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: Craigt on January 03, 2011, 09:33:40 AM
Thanks for all the input folks.
Just to confirm, though I did not specify in my original post, my interest is first to have a practice gun that is not so punishing as the R9 and second to reduce cost of practice if possible.
A Rohrbaugh 380 would be the ultimate practice gun but I don't want to spend that much right now.
My Colt Pony 380 should be a good stand-in. I am hoping to get to the range tonight to give it a try. It has be a number of years since it has been shot.
I see a .22 in my not-so-distant future so any further input is most encouraged.
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: Z on January 03, 2011, 03:49:20 PM
You can always have your PUP ported. This will help with recoil. You will still have to run quality ammo.
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: Reinz on January 04, 2011, 06:48:45 PM
Oviously using the real thing is best. Something close, is not bad.
Just shooting regularly, going through motions safely and using good tactics will pay off as well.
Basically, shoot what 'cha got, when ya can, where ya can, as much as ya can. :D
And have fun. ;D
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: Craigt on January 05, 2011, 05:21:03 PM
I was able to take the Colt Pony 380 to the range last night. The Pony shot well, mostly. Two stove pipes out of 56 rounds, not sure why. Other than that the recoil spring seemed to cycle the slide. Accuracy is good. Much less punishing than the R9.
For those who have not shot a Pony, the trigger has a very high force. When I researched reducing the force years ago, the input that I received was that any reduction in the hammer spring force would result in un-reliable primer ignition.
For now the Pony will be my new practice stand-in gun. I would not be surprised though if a Rohrbaugh 380 finds its way into my posession sometime in the future.
Craig T.
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: yankee2500 on January 05, 2011, 05:34:32 PM
Craig, Sounds like a good solution to your problem for now.
John
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: kjtrains on January 05, 2011, 05:58:04 PM
Craig. You have done well and saved yourself some bucks. Don't forget that .22 though. :)
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: Jack_F on January 05, 2011, 06:30:37 PM
Maybe a 380 should be your carry gun . I carry a kel tec 380 at times in a neck holster. 380's are selling like crazy in gun stores now. Kel Tec's are low cost but reliable.
I have shot handguns for 50 years and an instructor since 1976. I believe you should practice with THE GUN or guns you will carry.
Small Colt autos have had a history of reliability issues. :)
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: tracker on January 05, 2011, 07:06:45 PM
I see that the P-3AT now has a 9 round magazine available. That might not work in a neck holster, though.
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: hedrok on January 06, 2011, 06:00:38 PM
A few years ago I found myself in the same situation. Love the R9...hate to practice with it....it hurts and it's pricey. Something I like very much about the Rohrbaugh pistols is the long, smooth trigger pull which lead me to the only other firearm that I've found that has that same long, smooth action and is easy on cost...a S&W 617...22lr revolver. One handed shooting with that 22 WILL be good practice for trigger control. The gun is a lot heavier...the felt recoil is a lot less...but in order to hit what is intended...IMO the trigger control is a must. I've probably put 6-7K rds thru the 617....Still can't win bullseye competitions but I have a lot of cheap fun and can keep 7 shots from my K380 in a 5" group at 50 ft. in less than 10 seconds. Not great...But would certainly get the job done.
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: Craigt on January 08, 2011, 10:37:54 AM
All good input.
Now I am going to show my ignorance...
Could one load some under powered 9mm ammo, say similar power to a 380 round? Just enough to fully cycle the slide? The R9 might be too finicky for this but it seems as if the slide is cycled all the way back it should eject the empty and pick up the next round.
One's exact carry gun could be used for extended practicing without overly punishing one's hand or gun.
This probably requires setting up to reload or finding someone local that is already set up to reload to do it. Might be expensive.
There must be a reason I have not heard of this technique. So there it is. I am not shy about asking silly questions.
Craig T.
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: tracker on January 08, 2011, 10:45:31 AM
Why not keep it as close to the reality of concealed carry as possible? If you start downloading your practice rounds you are defeating the benefit of practice to simulate an encounter. I think WWB and Speer Lawman FMJ, for example, are as far as I want to deviate from the carry round of Gold Dot or Silvertip.
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: yankee2500 on January 08, 2011, 11:49:16 AM
Craig, I agree with tracker. The point of practice is not just to put holes in paper but also to keep you familiar with all aspects of your carry weapon, this includes recoil. Shooting extremely light loads is not going to give you the same feel for a followup shot.
John
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: kjtrains on January 08, 2011, 11:55:16 AM
Craig. I, too, agree with tracker and John. What each said. Keep it simple. Don't try and make this too hard.
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: Craigt on January 08, 2011, 12:45:26 PM
Now I am a little confused. Before I continue, since you cannot see me, my body language, let me assure you I am not trying to be argumentative or put anyone on the spot. I want to fully understand this aspect of self defense practice.
tracker, kjtrains and yankee2500, according to your last posts I should not practice with anything but my full powered R9. I have no problems controlling this gun. My only concern is after about 50 rounds in one session it becomes uncomfortable to shoot. This comment has been made before so I am not the only one to express this situation.
This leads to two outcomes: 1. Practice only up to 50 rounds per session. 2. Practice as much as I want and tuff it out.
In earlier posts in this thread it was suggested to use a .22 conversion for some other gun that I had. I also got favorable comments on using my Colt Pony 380. Both of these options include reduced to much reduced recoil and totally different to a little different gun (shape, size, operation, etc). So if these are ok stand-ins for practice, why are down-loaded 9mm rounds in my R9 not a good practice solution?
I plan on finishing practice sessions with the full power R9 but the reality is I do not know if more than 50 rounds is productive and helpful. Based on reading this type of comment numerous times here on the forum I know I am not alone with this sentiment.
Help me understand this...
Craig T.
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: kjtrains on January 08, 2011, 12:58:50 PM
Craig. Certainly not trying to be argumentative either. You really shouldn't have to fire more than 50 rds in a session. That's the part I don't understand; 50 rds is a gracious plenty.
The R9, by words of the builder, is designed to be carried a lot and shot little.
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: tracker on January 08, 2011, 01:00:22 PM
I think we are talking about two different things: there is target shooting and there is self-defense practice with your concealed carry weapon. That is why Rohrbaugh says, "carry a lot and shoot a little." Fifty rounds with the R9 should be more than sufficient for practice and reliability verification. If you are trying to improve your shooting skills such as target line of sight, breathing, and proper trigger pull, etc., take something else and fire it to the point of exhaustion if that is what it takes.
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: tracker on January 08, 2011, 02:17:50 PM
Sorry for the apparent duplication of thoughts. We were answering at the same time. There is also another practice shooting classification and that one is just for fun and enjoyment. I really enjoy just shooting my Gold Cup and Hi-Power, Glocks, and others at the range.
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: yankee2500 on January 08, 2011, 02:48:01 PM
Craig, What I took away from the the "low power load" post was you were going to practice with the R9 with just low power loads. As long as you fire a couple of mags of your SD loads, I see no problem with it. About reloads, getting reloads from others can be risky and most shooters I know are very leery of shooting reloads from others. Reloading yourself is going to be pretty expensive. Most guys that reload do so for multiple calibers and the biggest savings are on the large calibers. It would not be worth while to load 9mm for just practicing with the pup.
John
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: tracker on January 08, 2011, 03:25:59 PM
If you really intend to shoot thousands of rounds all roads lead back to some version of the .22 for economy. The .380 certainly doesn't fall in the cheap ammo class but then there is the cost of a new gun. .22s are readily available and not very expensive weapons, such as a new or used Ruger, for example.
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: kjtrains on January 08, 2011, 03:29:31 PM
For goodness sakes, get a .22! ;D
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: Craigt on January 08, 2011, 03:47:40 PM
Thanks for the clarifications guys.
At this stage in my life journey my shooting is focused on self defense applications. Target shooting is fun but at this point I am concentrating on self defense.
I did not grow up with guns and shooting, no hunting, and I am not as steeped in the shooting sports a most of you folks. I learned shooting as an adult (late 20s) after giving up my wallet and briefcase coerced by the business end of a pistol.
I am still learning quite a bit about defensive shooting and feel that range sessions of more than 50 rounds could help me very much. Two handed, dominant hand only, non-dominant two handed and one handed, etc., etc.
I am well tuned into 'practice with what you carry'. So I am striving for as close as I can get to my R9 but less punishing on the hand. Less cost would be nice but not the primary focus.
Tracker mentioned WWB and Speer Lawman FMJ. Are these fairly low powered 9mm founds? The ammo decision has so many variables that I have used Gold Dot 124 gr almost exclusively.
The Colt Pony is reasonably similar to the R9 except for the high trigger pull.
At some level, serious defensive shooting practice with almost any reasonable gun will be valuable but we are creatures of habit. I have read enough accounts of actual situations that lend credence to the adage 'practice with what you carry' that this is what I am striving for.
Sounds like I am talking myself into a Rohrbaugh 380 doesn't it?
All good folks. Any further input is most appreciated.
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: tracker on January 08, 2011, 04:08:38 PM
Craig, I mentioned WWB and Speer Lawman only as lower cost FMJ alternatives to your Gold Dots, not as lower power. In aviation we used a term, "train to proficiency." That is similar to self defense training in that we only need to achieve a minimum level of proficiency to be effective and that implies repeatability but not perfection. Many of us feel that shooting more than 50 rounds in one session with the R9 may tend to be negative training and have a regressive effect.
Have you considered taking a weapons self-defense course? There are many good ones available such as Thunder Ranch and others that Duane may recommend. I'm sure you will find the right level to achieve your goals with as much thought as you are giving it. All the best to you.
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: Craigt on January 09, 2011, 02:35:19 PM
Thanks for that clarification Tracker.
Good point about proficiency vs. perfection. Though I may sound like I am obsessing I am not looking for perfection. (Isn't Perfection where the Graboids are found?)
The 50 round R9 "limit" is precisely why I want a practice stand-in that does not have that limit.
Also a good point about training courses. I have a few under my belt. Most certainly not as intensive as Thunder Ranch. If I recall correctly my classes were from 100 to 200 rounds per evening class. I hope someday soon to be able to attend some of the more intensive classes. Until then, I want to get the most out of the practicing that I am able to do.
All good input. You folks are the only on-line resources that I trust. Any further thoughts are very much appreciated.
Craig T.
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: rodell on January 12, 2011, 11:43:32 PM
The Ruger LCP isn't bad as a stand in. It is what I carried before the R9 when concealment was a foremost requirement.
Title: Re: Range Practice Surrogate
Post by: yankee2500 on January 13, 2011, 12:28:00 AM
The LCP is a fine little 380, I had one but sold it after I purchased my Kahr P-380.