The Rohrbaugh Forum

Miscellaneous => The Water Cooler -- General Discussions => Topic started by: garymass on January 10, 2008, 06:15:48 PM

Title: Caught the Bug
Post by: garymass on January 10, 2008, 06:15:48 PM: Ok I am new to this site and have only put 50rds through my R-9s since I bought it but I think I have caught the gun bug again. I presently only own a few but I am like a kid in a candy store when I go to the gun store now. I want to buy a good competition shooting gun then I want a nice 1911, and it just keeps going but I want to be able to use all of them. Right now I own a Glock 19 which was my service gun plus a SW640, Walther PPKS(soon to go), Taurus PT145 and of course the R-9S. It sounds like most guys own some type of 1911 and there are so many types which confuses the crap out of me and after that I am not really sure but I do not want to buy another gun a regret it. Any help and advise is greatly appreciated.

Gary
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: Richard S on January 10, 2008, 06:49:16 PM: Gary:

Welcome to the Forum and congratulations on acquiring your R9. You now own what I consider to be the ultimate in pocket pistols.

As for the 1911, I was handed my first 1911 courtesy of a benevolent U. S. Government in 1963, and it was "love at first shot." I've been a die-hard disciple of the doctrine according to Colonel Cooper ever since.

Rather than attempt to suggest any single one of the many current manufacturers of 1911-type pistols, I would simply urge you to start reading everything you can lay your hands on regarding the available options, decide how you will be using the pistol, and then make your move. I personally started with a plain-Jane, government-issue Colt and then had it transformed by Clark Custom Guns. By the time my project was completed (and it took over a year), I had poured more than $3,000 into it -- but I had the 1911 of my dreams -- a laser-equipped "tack driver" that is at the top of the list of my prized possessions.

Before (the only enhancements at the time being Sambar Stag grips and Bo-Mar adjustable sights):

(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y30/RichardS/Colt1991A1BeforeCustomizing.jpg)

After:

(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y30/RichardS/Colt-1.jpg)

Good hunting!
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: tracker on January 10, 2008, 06:54:39 PM: Is that a "Tripp" magazine, Richard?
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: Richard S on January 10, 2008, 08:40:16 PM: Tracker:

The two magazines in the lower photograph are Wilson Combat 7-rounders. Before I start ordering a set of those spectacular new Tripp magazines for the .45 ACP 1911s, I need send Virgil the six additional HK P7 PSP magazines I've just finished scrounging on the various gun boards and have him plate them in matte Cobra Chrome. (Did I ever mention that I was known as a pretty fair "Dog Robber" back in my Army days? ;) )

Much of what I enjoy about working with and adding to my collection of firearms is the planning of various projects. 8)
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: tracker on January 10, 2008, 10:13:14 PM: No, but I was a pretty fair "Cumshaw Artist and Midnight
Requisitioner" in the Navy. One does what he has to do;
it is easier to apologize than to ask permission. I loved your
story about sailing school in Germany.
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: tracker on January 10, 2008, 10:28:52 PM: Gary,
Sorry for the slight thread drift; there are as many 1911s
as one's budget will allow but here are two of my favorites:
Colt Series 70 Gold Cup--they are still available and the
Springfield Mil-Spec 1911. The Mil-Spec is made in Brazil
but is very high quality--all forged, superb slide to frame fit,
etc., and a good barrel but it is really superb in the hands of
a master gunsmith.
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: riffraff on January 10, 2008, 10:57:36 PM: Gary,

I urge you to take your time on this endevor. I also urge you to avoid the 1911 and all it's varients. That is all old school. If you are into nostalgia than a 1911 is for you. If you desire the very best in handgun design then avoid the 1911 as if it were the plague.

My opinions only, Mike
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: garymass on January 10, 2008, 11:12:43 PM: Thanks guys

I want to use the gun to become the best shooter possible and spend alot of time at the range but still be able to either carry it or for it to be similar to my other ones.
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: Novanglus on January 10, 2008, 11:38:20 PM: The indisputably great Col. Jeff Cooper was the father of modern pistol craft - his techniques are universally employed by elite real world pistol shooters (eg: military & LE). The Guru considered the 1911 to be the ultimate combat handgun. Certainly there are contrary opinions, but few from folks of equivalent achievement and expertise. So, I don't offer my own opinion, but suggest that the Colonel's is worthy of respect.

FMI: http://www.frfrogspad.com/#Cooper
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: tracker on January 10, 2008, 11:45:19 PM: Mike,

It sounded like Gary was looking for positive suggestions.
You have said you don't like Glocks, a modern and very
reliable design, because they are ugly. Why are there so
many current variants of the 1911 if they are antique history?

What do you recommend and why?
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: riffraff on January 11, 2008, 06:04:36 PM: Well guys,

To try and make things short. Most of us are never going be engaged in "combat" with our personal guns. Combat and LE has different requirements than us ordinary folk.

The Glock is a fine pistol. I personally just don't like the way that particular gun looks or feels in my hand.

Well, Colonel Cooper considered the 1911 to be the best gun for LE did he. So WHY is it that LE's don't carry single actions anymore? Cooper was a man of his times. And he was almost as opinionated as I am.

As far al all the varients of the 1911 that are out there. It is all nostalgia. People have seen to many movies and TV shows. You all have probably heard the saying, "repeat a lie enough times and people will start believing it". This applies to the mistaken mentality that the 1911 is "the best handgun ever made".

I have tried to explain my views. I hope this helps.

Gary,

Here is a positive suggestion, acquire a CZ PO1. If you ever have to do any "combat" this gun will serve you well. It also is a pleasing plinker/range gun.

Mike
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: tracker on January 11, 2008, 06:41:31 PM: What a country where we have the freedom to discuss such
issues; I particularly like a Sig 228, German made, of course.
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: riffraff on January 11, 2008, 07:25:03 PM: YAVOOL!

The CZ guns are made in the Check Republic. A lot of them speak German too.

Mike
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: tracker on January 11, 2008, 07:38:26 PM: They make some decent airplanes, too.

http://www.evektoramerica.com/cobra.htm
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: Richard S on January 11, 2008, 07:42:49 PM: Here's some more grist for the mill . . . .

http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/st_0212_lapd/

8)
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: garymass on January 11, 2008, 08:35:56 PM: I was at my local shop and range today and was checking out the Kimber Raptor that is a new addition. It is a really nice gun and has a nice Price tag to it but I have learned before you get what you pay for. The Kimber is approx double the cost of most guns that would be purhased to carry of course except our exceptional piece! ;D Just spent hour and a half staring at guns today.
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: tracker on January 11, 2008, 09:06:06 PM: Welcome to the club, Gary; you are hooked.
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: Novanglus on January 11, 2008, 10:38:47 PM: Quote
... So WHY is it that LE's don't carry single actions anymore? ...

This would be very surprising news to members of SWAT teams and elite military units.

http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/st_0212_lapd/

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_170_28/ai_n6040330

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_144_24/ai_57886947/pg_1
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: tracker on January 11, 2008, 11:51:00 PM: This is all good stuff; what I am hearing here is that the rank
and file LE personnel are not as proficient and as well trained
as are the elite military and SWAT teams.

There may be an issue here of liability and not reliabilty in the
decision to switch to Glocks, etc., even though they had to
go to a N.Y. trigger because of some accidental discharges.
I know from a good source that the average police officer
rarely fires his weapon except to remain qualified and beyond
that is not particularly proficient.

As is usually the case it is more the indian than it is the bow
and arrow. There is a reason that the 1911 is still kicking more
than nostalgia: the market always dictates the product.
Simply put, the elite units are better trained and remain pro-
ficient through practice. There is always a place for superior
weapons, the 1911 being one of them.
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: garymass on January 12, 2008, 12:11:33 AM: A large portion of LE that are hired across the country have a limited experience to none and then are given a mere two weeks training in an academy and then only need to shoot 100 rounds twice a year basicallt means they are not really going to be much of a shot.
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: Richard S on January 12, 2008, 08:21:59 AM: Chuck Taylor, founder/director of the American Small Arms Academy, has written a frequently referenced article on the subject:

http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/1911_PraiseCT.htm
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: riffraff on January 12, 2008, 05:54:23 PM: Richard and all,

Yes, I knew that someone would bring up that some specialized police units and specialized military units also use single actions for specific applications. The percentage of the special ops units that use these guns are so small that for all practical purposes it is irrevelent. Police and military dropped the single action long ago and that is that.

Mike
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: theirishguard on January 12, 2008, 06:03:14 PM: not so Tom
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: riffraff on January 12, 2008, 06:13:33 PM: is too ;) :)

Mike
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: Richard S on January 12, 2008, 07:23:47 PM: And the beat goes on . . . . 8)

http://www.policelink.com/training/articles/7887-history-of-the-1911
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: tracker on January 12, 2008, 08:43:59 PM: Mike,
As surely as you will never be convinced, the 1911 design
will outlast all of us. HK and SIG have confirmed this with
some of their recent single action, cocked and locked
options.
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: riffraff on January 12, 2008, 08:54:49 PM: Tracker,

Yes, I understand. Nostalga lives. It sometimes takes many generations for modern thought to prevail. Take a look at the Arab/Islamic cultures, they are still stuck in the 11th century too. ;) :)

Mike
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: tracker on January 12, 2008, 11:11:19 PM: I have taken a look at those cultures; in fact, I lived in
Saudi Arabia for six months. Have you ever spent any time
there? That parallel you draw is illogical and is comparison
by obfuscation. :o
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: riffraff on January 12, 2008, 11:48:07 PM: Tracker,

Yes, spent some time there. Their culture does have some qualities that I admire. They know how to treat women and they are very harsh on crime. Problem is if you have enough money and/or are royalty you can buy yourself out of a criminal problem. Geez, I guess they are more like us than I thought.

Mike
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: tracker on January 13, 2008, 12:01:12 AM: Maybe you are onto something else Mike, and that is that 21
of them with crude and elementary weapons brought us
temporarily to our knees on 9/11.
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: riffraff on January 13, 2008, 12:41:27 AM: Ok,

I am going way off topic here but here goes.

**Edited by DDGator -- I agree, too far off topic! ***

So, now that tracker has coaxed these truisims out of me, shall we return to the principal topic of the forum. I like these kinds of foreys in to the philosopical, but they are not the purpose of the forum.

My brass grips are so sweet, photos do not do them justice, not to heavy, perfect. I am looking forward to a range session.

Mike
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: garymass on January 13, 2008, 09:42:12 PM: Ok I know this post drifted a little but I will try and get it back on track. ;D
Are most of you using the R-9 as a back up or single carry and if so what is your primary weapon. The last two weeks I have carried the R9 as my primary when I used to carry my SW640. I looked at the Kimber raptor this wekend and it is a nice gun but don't think I have to go that crazy so basically what is everyone have on their side? Thanks
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: tracker on January 13, 2008, 09:48:31 PM: The R9 is it for me.
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: riffraff on January 13, 2008, 10:02:20 PM: garymass,

In answer to your question, both. Sometimes I carry only one R9 and sometimes I carry both of my R9's. The R9 is both a primary and secondary defense for me. I just can't conceil anything larger than the R9 as I am not a very big person. I wish my state allowed open carry so I could put something on my side but alas, I cannot.

Mike
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: DDGator on January 13, 2008, 10:43:45 PM: The political part of this thread is too far off topic and was getting a litte too deep for this forum. Edited in part -- no offense intended. Keep on with the R-9 discussions!
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: Richard S on January 14, 2008, 11:17:11 AM: Quote
Ok I know this post drifted a little but I will try and get it back on track. ;D
Are most of you using the R-9 as a back up or single carry and if so what is your primary weapon. The last two weeks I have carried the R9 as my primary when I used to carry my SW640. I looked at the Kimber raptor this wekend and it is a nice gun but don't think I have to go that crazy so basically what is everyone have on their side? Thanks

Gary:

For me, it depends on the environment in which I'll be moving and the type of attire I'll be wearing, but the R9 is what I call "my always gun." When possible, especially when going into certain remote and questionable areas, I'll carry that laser-equipped 1911 I described above or my recently acquired HK P7 as primary with the R9 as backup. At other times, the R9 will be primary with one of the NAA Guardians in the back pocket as backup. Often, the R9 will be the only weapon carried -- but I always have the R9 in my strong-side front pocket whenever and wherever it is legal to do so.

It goes without saying that it is important to practice regularly with each weapon which may be carried so as to maintain proficiency (some might call it "muscle memory") with each piece. With enough practice, the use of each weapon according to its individual "manual of arms" becomes almost second nature as soon as it is taken into hand.
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: Novanglus on January 14, 2008, 12:03:07 PM: Quote
It goes without saying that it is important to practice regularly with each weapon which may be carried so as to maintain proficiency (some might call it "muscle memory") with each piece. With enough practice, the use of each weapon according to its individual "manual of arms" becomes almost second nature as soon as it is taken into hand.

Hear! Hear! to the importance - the responsibility - of regular proficiency practice with defense arms!
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: theirishguard on January 14, 2008, 12:17:49 PM: R9 always and maybe a S&W 432pd or 1911 as primary weapon Tom
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: Reinz on January 16, 2008, 01:00:19 PM: garymass - I have been carrying concealed since the TX law was enacted and before that many years ago. My primary carry gun of choice in a 1911. I'm not saying that is the best. I think it is one of the best for me. The key is TRAINING. Know your weapon well. Wether it's a CZ or an HK, (which I sometimes carry as well).
Don't let anyone shove their opinions down your throat. Just weigh out the features and benefits of each weapon and how it will apply to your daily routine and/or dress. You may find out like many of us that may take a few different guns.

Train with them, clean them, break them down, know them well.

Happy hunting.

Reinz
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: ccoorreeyy on February 07, 2008, 05:03:16 PM: Currently my "Always with me" main is a LWS-380 and backup is a NAA Black Widow on my ankle. If I know I have to go somewhere iffy I carry my glock 23. That 22mag is just for when I'm seated in a car and if I could not get to my pocket fast enough. Soon the pocket gets a R9s and the seecamp goes to the ankle!
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: firewalker on March 30, 2008, 11:13:16 AM:    Reading through this thread has brought up some interesting things. Depending on how we judge great firearms or combat guns is a personal choice.
   From my perspective, I shoot IDPA, and USPSA. When i engage in these fine shooting sports i have found that a 1911 is still a very good weapon. Yes i have tried all the wonder new fantastic plastic thingies out there. But it always comes down to one thing. Accuracy and speed, which i will also assume is necessary in a gun fight.
   So other than pocket carry which i have aquired a 380 guardian, and an R9 for. There is simply no other platform as accurate and fast as a good 1911. I shoot STI, Kimber, and will soon add a Colt LW commander in 38 super. ;D
Title: Re: Caught the Bug
Post by: dawkind on March 30, 2008, 01:32:51 PM: I'm a dyed-in-the-wool 1911 fan, and have been for MANY years, but after getting a HK P7, I'd almost argue the "accurate and fast" part.... ;)