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Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh Accessories => Topic started by: flintsghost on April 09, 2011, 03:02:27 AM

Title: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: flintsghost on April 09, 2011, 03:02:27 AM: Today, I was in a discussion with someone who was one of my students when I ran the state academy. We started talking about ammunition for duty and off duty and he was stuck on one particular round for all his pistols even in different calibers. He really liked Federal hydrashock. And he used the same bullet in different calibers for all his handguns, both duty, off duty and fun. It came as a shock to him when I explained as tactfully as I could that every pistol barrel is a little different. They are after all a product of the + and - factors of production machining. I explained that you can't necessarily find the best round for a particular pistol by brand. You have to try lots of stuff to come up with a particular "best round" for any handgun. By way of example I took him through a number of the working pistols and revolvers that I have and use for a variety of different things. Each and every one has had a lot of different rounds fired to come up with the most accurate round for each individual weapon. Here's the list and the best round in each..so far. I say so far because I never stop trying new stuff. I also don't and haven't had the ability to use every possible manufacturer in every pistol but I've used a bunch. In some like my R9S that fact that +P and +P+ are eliminated by manufacturer recommendation limits the choics also.

Remington Rand 1911A1 - .45ACP reload 200 H&G SWC
   5.2/700X and a Win primer. for a
   factory round 230 Federal Gold
   Medal Match.

Colt Defender .45ACP - Remington 185 Golden Sabre Bonded

S&W Model 58 - Remington 210 gr JSP (The original full
   house load the .41mag was designed for).

SIG P220R Carry - Speer 200 grain GD +P

SIG P239 .40 Cal - Remington 165 Golden Sabre Bonded

H&K P2000SK .40 Cal - Speer 165 GD

S&W 637 .38 Spec - Speer 135 grain GD +P Short Barrel

H&K USPc 9mm - Federal Hydrahock 147 grain +P+

SIG P228 - Speer 124 Grain GD +P/Federal 124 grain HS toss
   up.

SIG P225 - Federal 124 grain Hydrashock

Rohrbaugh R9S - Speer 124 Gold Dot

Those are the best I've found for each. The Rohrbaugh is still a work in progress but I think my tests pretty much confirmed some of the information that was published on line by one person with the exception that I didn't have immediate access to any Winchester handgun ammo at all. I tried rounds that I already had on hand. But since I confirmed that the standard velocity Speer GD 124gr was a similar result to what I saw on line, I quit while I was ahead and had tried all the available rounds that were non +P or +P+ that I had on hand. I do still want to try Remington 124 grain golden sabre bonded in it but so far I don't have any available at this time. I wasn't impressed with the bullet performance of the golden sabre round at the low velocitys that the short barrel of the Rohrbaugh produces in the online tests. I avoided Speers Short Barrel 9mm because even though it produces similar ballistics to the 124 grain standard GD in a longer barrel, it is rated as +P due to pressures and a propellant change which gives it those ballistics in a shorter barrel.

I want to emphasize that this is what I found in my pistols and in particular in the Rohrbaugh. I readily admit that I don't want to use a round smaller than 124 grain also. The reason is that I prefer the penetration of the heavier bullet over the speed of the 115 grain. If someone else likes that speed, go for it. But for me the deciding factor will always be accuracy and bullet size over speed. Another round I want to try in the Rohrbaugh that I didn't have available is a Glaser Safety Slug (if they make a non +P variety). They used to. But it's been a long time since I shot any. It would seem that they might be made to order for the Rohrbaugh. For those who don't know what they are, do a little research and you might have a new door opened to you.
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: Richard S on April 10, 2011, 02:02:43 PM: FG:

That is a very insightful post. I also have different brands and loads for different guns in my collection, based on trial and error over the years.

Good stuff! Thanks for posting it.
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: flintsghost on April 11, 2011, 03:39:15 PM: Quote
FG:

That is a very insightful post. I also have different brands and loads for different guns in my collection, based on trial and error over the years.

Good stuff! Thanks for posting it.

Thanks, somehow my reply got sent to cyberspace. Your signature line is not complete...it should say, "Go ARMY..Beat NAVY!" I'm an army brat myself and grew up on Army football and still follow it regardless of how they are doing.
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: Richard S on April 11, 2011, 03:57:00 PM: Quote

Thanks, somehow my reply got sent to cyberspace. Your signature line is not complete...it should say, "Go ARMY..Beat NAVY!" I'm an army brat myself and grew up on Army football and still follow it regardless of how they are doing.

FG:

There are about five of us die-hard Army types around here and about as many from the Navy. It's been rough terrain and hard slogging for us but fair winds and following seas for them the past seven years at "game time."
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: flintsghost on April 11, 2011, 05:10:33 PM: Quote

FG:

There are about five of us die-hard Army types around here and about as many from the Navy. It's been rough terrain and hard slogging for us but fair winds and following seas for them the past seven years at "game time."

About 5 years ago, I was pending have multiple bipass surgery, and I watched Army's opener at Michie Stadium against Rutgers. They almost won and I got so excited yelling and screaming that the nitro didn't help. My wife had to take me to the hospital. I refused to leave till the matter was decided. A few days later I had 6 bipasses. I tried to go to West Point out of high school and couldn't quite pull a high enough score in math. Rather than try again a year later I went on to college. The only thing I regret is that I didn't get to play for Army. I've been a fan since a child all through Pete Dawkins Heisman years and Carpenter's "lonely end" days. Not much on TV then except Army/Navy but they were easy to follow in the paper. When Navy has two Heisman's on the same team and some back to back National Championships then they can boast. Belino and Staubach were great, but they didn't play together and neither got a championship. When Navy and Air Force are playing and Army is not the opponent, I root for them too. But Army is the King, in my opinion even if they are temporarily on hard times. They did manage a bowl this year though and that's something.
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: ACP on April 13, 2011, 05:15:43 PM: flintsghost:

I am ex-Army; (MP detachment Ft. Riley, Kansas). I hope your health is better than Army's football team.
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: tracker on April 13, 2011, 06:55:43 PM: Fear not; that old pendulum will swing back and the tide will turn for the Black Knights once again one of these days. The ghosts of Mr. Inside and Mr. Outside shall ride victoriously in Philadelphia but we just don't know when. Maybe this is the year.
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: flintsghost on April 13, 2011, 07:10:44 PM: I thought Bobby Ross might have the answer. But alas not to be. However, they keep getting better and better. Navy has the edge right now but it's always swinging back and forth. Who knows. Being a fan means loving to see them and yelling and screaming even in the hard times. My health is much better now thanks for asking.
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: ACP on April 13, 2011, 07:11:28 PM: Well said but I don't think the younger generation is attracted to the service academies as much as they are to the fame, glory and money of bigger schools.

In my lifetime the exceptions, (albeit long ago), were Roger Staubach and David Robinson.
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: tracker on April 13, 2011, 07:16:30 PM: Take heart. West Point was 27-0-1 from 1944-1946.
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: flintsghost on April 13, 2011, 07:31:44 PM: Quote
Well said but I don't think the younger generation is attracted to the service academies as much as they are to the fame, glory and money of bigger schools.

In my lifetime the exceptions, (albeit long ago), were Roger Staubach and David Robinson.

David Robinson of course was too tall for the Navy and thus was able to go straight into the NBA. More recently there was a Air Force Academy grad as a pilot he flew in the original Desert Storm and who when his time was done, like Stauback, went to the Dallas Cowboys,... defensive line. Name escapes me right now. Don't forget Napoleon McCallum from Navy who played for the Raiders. There are probably many more that we don't know about or can't remember. The fact is that the number of college players from any school who are good enough to play in the Pro's in any sport is so miniscule compared to the ones can't..that it's sometimes hard for me to believe that many want to try it, especially in hard times where the service academys give one the best education money can't buy and a ready made career upon graduation. My son gave up a promising collegiate Baseball career and upon graduation joined the Army and is now an E6 18B/18D Special Forces Weapons and Medic. He served in afghanistan, earned his CIB the hard way, and will probably be going back. He doesn't miss sports at all and told me recently that he wouldn't trade being in MLB for what he does. He said anyone can play baseball with work, but only a very select few get to do what he does, no matter how hard they try. He has, I think, learned the wisdom of a sign I once saw on the desk of someone I knew who had served in Vietnam. It said, "for those who fight for it and win, life has a spice the protected will never know." It set right next to another sign with a 1st Div patch and a CIB on it, that said, "if you got to be one, be a BIG RED ONE." I always enjoyed those two signs.
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: Richard S on April 13, 2011, 08:12:01 PM: FG:

I salute your son and thank him for his service to our nation!
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: ACP on April 13, 2011, 08:17:55 PM: flintsghost: Father and son are (rightfully) proud of what you describe.

I am embarassed to have forgotten Pat Tillman, Arizona Cardinal NFL player, killed in Afghanistan.

The rode not taken does not come with a yardstick. I was drafted in the 1970's during de-escalation of Vietnam. I tested very well; fresh from a liberal arts college in New England and didn't have a clue as to what I could have achieved had I said "yes" to officer candidate school, flight warrant officer (helicopter), CID and other opportunities.

Each required more time than the 2 years mandated by conscription. As I have gotten older I have come to believe that "wisdom" is acquired with age and has no place when you are young, headstrong and uninformed.
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: flintsghost on April 13, 2011, 10:15:23 PM: Quote
flintsghost: Father and son are (rightfully) proud of what you describe.

I am embarassed to have forgotten Pat Tillman, Arizona Cardinal NFL player, killed in Afghanistan.

The rode not taken does not come with a yardstick. I was drafted in the 1970's during de-escalation of Vietnam. I tested very well; fresh from a liberal arts college in New England and didn't have a clue as to what I could have achieved had I said "yes" to officer candidate school, flight warrant officer (helicopter), CID and other opportunities.

Each required more time than the 2 years mandated by conscription. As I have gotten older I have come to believe that "wisdom" is acquired with age and has no place when you are young, headstrong and uninformed.

Pat Tillman is in a special category all by himself. What he did for the military when he decided there were things more important than money and quit the NFL as an all star player and joined the army as a buck private in the rear rank, can not probably be equaled. The amount of publicity it gave to the overall effort and support was without measure. The fact that the military fumbled the facts of his demise is unfortunate but understandable, I believe. But he, my friends, is a true hero and patriot, regardless of how he met his end.
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: Bri0242 on April 14, 2011, 11:51:13 AM: I just talked with Maria at Rohrbaugh about a rust issue on my new R9S, and she said that they recommend the Winchester Silvertip first & the Speer Gold Dot second. Weird....
Thanks to all the brave servicemen & women. ;)
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: yankee2500 on April 14, 2011, 12:27:29 PM: Silvertips, Gold Dots, Ranger T Series, Hydra Shock, Golden Sabre, Corbon, Buffalo Bore all excellent carry ammo if they function flawlessly in your gun.
The best way to decide your carry round is what works best in
YOUR pup.
Always test and carry the most reliable round for your gun, if there are more than one that are equal look at availability and price.
The top shelf SD ammo brands are pretty comparable in performance, so that makes availability the next most important aspect. You will be hesitant to practice a enough with a round that you cant readily get or is not affordable to you.
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: flintsghost on April 14, 2011, 01:58:06 PM: Quote
I just talked with Maria at Rohrbaugh about a rust issue on my new R9S, and she said that they recommend the Winchester Silvertip first & the Speer Gold Dot second. Weird....
Thanks to all the brave servicemen & women. ;)

Yankee 2500 makes a really good point in his post above.

OK, I just replied with a lot of technical info, but it was too long so the message disappeared.

I will give you the high points. The Silvertip rounds in the original FBI tests scored medium for accuracy, below the then new Federal Hydrashok and Gold dot was not even out. For wound efficiency they scored so low in .380 that they fell into the minus category (less effective than throwing rocks). A 9mm and .380 depend on bullet performance for stopping power and when bullet performance is that bad, your life insurance needs to be current. Both rounds are listed in the FBI Ammunition Test Summary Book from 1990. The Federal Hydrahok is also listed and did much much better in all categories. In wound efficiency nearly double the 115 and it's difficult to even grade a minus grade of the .380.

I personally prefer the 124 grain size in 9mm and Winchester doesn't even make that size in silvertips. Cost on silvertips in 50 rd boxes runs about 40% more than Speer and is not even carried by most LE suppliers because Winchester no longer considers it a viable LE round. Federal Hydrashok is still running neck and neck with Speer GD as the most heavily sold rounds to LE departments.

There is a lot of information on how bad silvertips perform and how good hydrashok and Gold Dot perform. But one takes their pick and lives or dies with the choice. I choose 124 grain Gold Dot so far. That's based both on accuracy, and bullet performance info out of a Rohrbaugh. The performance info I have on silvertips 115 and their 380 85 is from the FBI tests when fired in a SIG 226 and a Walther PPKs
which have longer barrels and will develop higher velocities than a Rohrbaugh. However, if someone else choses differently, then that's why they make chocolate and vanilla. I won't challenge their choice and I drink to them from the bottom of my glass. Here's hoping they don't ever have a chance to regret their choice. Because those regrets would appear at a really bad moment.
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: ACP on April 14, 2011, 03:03:15 PM: Thanks for interesting ammo info. I did not know Silvertips scored so badly. I use Federal Hydroshock 147 grain HP for carry in my R9. I also like Golden Sabre with the same bullet.

I did not use 147 grain until it was recommended by Richard on this forum. I have never looked back as I like the heavier bullet and never have a jam, misfeed, ftf or fte.

My favorite cartridge is .45ACP. If I have to carry a 9MM, I want a heavier bullet.
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: flintsghost on April 14, 2011, 04:15:16 PM: Quote
Thanks for interesting ammo info. I did not know Silvertips scored so badly. I use Federal Hydroshock 147 grain HP for carry in my R9. I also like Golden Sabre with the same bullet.

I did not use 147 grain until it was recommended by Richard on this forum. I have never looked back as I like the heavier bullet and never have a jam, misfeed, ftf or fte.

My favorite cartridge is .45ACP. If I have to carry a 9MM, I want a heavier bullet.

Here here! It's hard to argue with .45ACP. Also my favorite. I like the Rohrbaugh in 9mm because it is the smallest, lightest and easiest in all conditions and all modes of dress. However, given the time of year etc, I'll opt for either my Colt Defender .45 or my SIG 239 .40, depending upon circumstances and how I'm dressed and what I see the problems being where I'm going. If I think the problems dictate the need for it I carry a Jackass rig with my Defender that holds 8 and I put two full size 8 round spare mags in the carrier, because that gives me biggest and most bang for any buck. That's the kind of rig with a LW commander that I used to use when I was temporarily assigned to executive security for the state. However, when I am traveling by 4 wheels, for any distance I always take my .45, mags and at least a box of ammo as well as what I'm going to carry on me during the trip. My sainted grandfather, god rest his soul, always taught me to take anything that I think I "might" need with me in a car. But the .45acp is still king, and I tried the 10mm and was disappointed.
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: Richard S on April 14, 2011, 04:41:45 PM: One hundred years and counting. Let us raise a glass to the memory of John Moses Browning and to the sheer genius of his M1911 design.

And to every BG's worst nightmare: 8)

(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y30/RichardS/th_1911BusinessEndwithLaserMax.jpg?t=1302809284)
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: kjtrains on April 14, 2011, 05:07:23 PM: Hear! Hear! :)

(http://s575.photobucket.com/albums/ss197/kjtrains/toast.gif)
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: ACP on April 14, 2011, 07:12:37 PM: I note flintsghost's "disappointment" with the 10MM. I have owned only one 10MM and that was a Gock model 29. I wasn't disappointed as much as I thought the round was overpowered for a self defense gun. (At the time I was living in NJ so carrying was not a consideration).

I have never been a fan of the .40; the derivitive of the 10MM. I will say, however, that the .357 Sig round is, to me, the next best thing to a .45. I don't know the science behind what would prove or disprove this cartridge. However, I do know that the experienced accuracy of the .357 Sig and the perceived stopping power make me happy.
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: tracker on April 14, 2011, 07:20:51 PM: The Texas State Highway Patrol switched to .357 Sig from the .40 and their range qualification groups shrank considerably, not to mention the superb ballistics: it is also a stopper.
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: ACP on April 14, 2011, 08:12:00 PM: I have owned three (3) 40's and never liked them, particularly the accuracy. By contrast, I have always gotten good accuracy with the .357 Sig. I have both .40 and a .357 barrels for my Sig P239. The .40 barrel is a wallflower; stays in the box.
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: tracker on April 14, 2011, 08:23:32 PM: I have the same set up with a Sig 229 and agree with you. The 239 is one of Sig's best. Even though I love all of mine I probably won't buy another Sig pistol.
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: kjtrains on April 14, 2011, 08:26:12 PM: I'm another happy camper with the .357 Sig, that being a Glock 33; performance always top notch; flawless. I'm truly amazed now, how well I now like a Glock.
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: yankee2500 on April 14, 2011, 08:29:52 PM: fg, I wasn't aware the Silvertips poor performance and don't really have a lot of interest in carrying an inferior round.
I carry the 124 or 147gr GDs in my pup, but have silvertips in my 380 Seecamp (had silvertips, I just put in some Winchester Ranger 95gr. T Series) I will shoot some tomorrow to be sure the function properly. ;D
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: kjtrains on April 14, 2011, 08:30:12 PM: Quote
I have the same set up with a Sig 229 and agree with you. The 239 is one of Sig's best. Even though I love all of mine I probably won't buy another Sig pistol.

Have never owned a Sig pistol; can't say I won't ever have one, but time will tell.
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: kjtrains on April 14, 2011, 08:35:14 PM: Quote
fg, I wasn't aware the Silvertips poor performance and don't really have a lot of interest in carrying an inferior round.
I carry the 124 or 147gr GDs in my pup, but have silvertips in my 380 Seecamp (had silvertips, I just put in some Winchester Ranger 95gr. T Series) I will shoot some tomorrow to be sure the function properly. ;D

I don't really consider the Winchester Silvertips inferior. If the Rohrbaughs recommend it and it shoots flawless for my R9, I'm good to go. :)
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: Bri0242 on April 14, 2011, 09:21:32 PM: I just thought it was strange that Rohrbaugh recommended Silvertips, when Gold Dots appear to be a better round. IMHO, shot placement is more important to me. I've taken care of patients, that were shot by .25 & .22s, & they still ended up dead. Go figure. However, a .45 still sits by the bed. Cheers on the ballistic results.
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: flintsghost on April 14, 2011, 09:35:06 PM: Quote

I don't really consider the Winchester Silvertips inferior. If the Rohrbaughs recommend it and it shoots flawless for my R9, I'm good to go. :)

You pay your money and you take your choice. I think that Rohrbaugh's recommendation is based solely on accuracy groups up close. And that's fine. The accuracy value of the silvertip loads in the FBI tests is good but the in target bullet performance is where it falls short. .38 Spec STHP and the .380 STHP and a 10mm Buffalo round are the only rounds I've seen that have a minus or negative wound value. The FBI lab doesn't test a lot of .380 and I was surprised it was even there but I mentioned it because I know there are people who carry it.

I would agree with most of the .40 detractors and didn't like carrying it when it was an issue sidearm. Accuracy was poor and I was never sure of bullet performance. We carried 180 grain Speer Gold Dot on duty. Our issue weapons were S&W 4006 and 4013's. After I retired they switched to S&W M&P's.
I tried a lot of ammo in my HK P2000SK .40 until I stumbled on the Rem Golden Sabre 165 bonded at the suggestion of a friend who at that time was running the FBI ballistic lab. I found it to be exceptionally good in accuracy rivaling some of the best in my stable. Later I obtained some Speer GD 165 and found it was nearly as good. The other Speer rounds and everthing I tried from Federal in all weights were terrible. But the Golden Sabre bonded and non bonded shot beautifully. Bonded gives slightly better performance but the non bonded shoots to same point of impact with same accuracy so it's good for practice. The Speer GD 165 is easier to find and a tad cheaper in bulk and the difference in group isn't much. All the other rounds were lucky to keep it on a pie plate at 15 whereas with the GD and GS 165 I can keep them in a large silver dollar at 25 off a sandbag for 5 shots.

With regard to the 10mm I tried it in a 1076 FBI pistol I had and in a 610 revolver. In the revolver it would make a really good hunting round. In the 1076, you better make your first one the best you got because your adversary would shoot 2 or 3 before you recovered. Unnecessarily powerful wasn't the word. I have .41 and .44 mags that don't take that long to recover that I use for backpacking and hiking. It's terrible for a defensive round. It was Jeff Coopers idea for the Bren 10 and sounds good in theory but never panned out. Even the FBI abandoned it.
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: kjtrains on April 14, 2011, 10:21:53 PM: Quote

You pay your money and you take your choice. I think that Rohrbaugh's recommendation is based solely on accuracy groups up close. And that's fine.

I'm still good to go. Thanks!
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: tracker on April 14, 2011, 10:25:12 PM: Thanks for all of the excellent in depth ammunition information. The wide gap in price between Silvertips and GDs doesn't seem to square with the ballistics and performance comparisons.
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: yankee2500 on April 14, 2011, 10:25:39 PM: Quote

I don't really consider the Winchester Silvertips inferior. If the Rohrbaughs recommend it and it shoots flawless for my R9, I'm good to go. :)

I know you have had perfect function in your pup with the Silvertips but function is only half the battle.
A gun companies job is to sell guns that work and will recommend the ammo that makes there gun work most consistently, there job is not bullet performance and ballistics.

If the gun works perfect and the bullet performance is sub par, for me that means I won't carry it.

[COLOR="Red"]The Silvertip rounds in the original FBI tests scored medium for accuracy, below the then new Federal Hydrashok and Gold dot was not even out. For wound efficiency they scored so low in .380 that they fell into the minus category (less effective than throwing rocks). [/COLOR]

In light of these test results I won't carry Silvertips in my 380 Seecamp anymore. I haven't carried them in my pup as I prefer a heavier bullet.
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: kjtrains on April 14, 2011, 10:35:04 PM: I'll continue to use the Silvertips in the R9, however, since I have the Federal Hydrashocks for the Seecamp .380, will go to that round for carry.

I do, usually, prefer the heavier bullet. ;D
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: flintsghost on April 14, 2011, 11:26:46 PM: I just put the info out. Until silvertips were mentioned I hadn't pulled out the FBI books and it had been so long since I had looked at them I had to brush the dust just to find them. I really didn't have any idea how they had done in the tests. So I just put the info out there for those who would like to know. I don't mind the 9mm and I like the Rohrbaugh R9S for a lot of reasons. Most of the time I carry a .45 because Colt don't make a .46, and the 1911 system is still my favorite.

I had an acquaintance who was shot and killed with a 9mm and the person had it loaded with some kind of full metal jacket european machine gun ammo. It didn't perform at all, but it bounced off a rib internally according to the medical examiner, penetrated the heart and moved a few times internally. The victim didn't die on the spot and probably had he been armed would have shot his assailant. He did die shortly thereafter on his way to the hospital. He was bleeding internally so fast that IV's wouldn't keep him going. When that happened I began wondering about bullet performance called terminal ballistics in the target.

I personally like the bigger is better theory and that's the best thing about a .45. If hardball doesn't get a kill it will definitely get a stop. When I was teaching shoot don't shoot and we had active scenarios running on film, cadets would exit the vehicle to exchange fire with the perpetrators and in one scenario exited the vehicle to shoot a man charging the car with a double bitted cruiser axe. They got bad grades from me for those when they did that. If I'm sitting in a patrol car in those scenario's I drop it in drive and floor it because it's the biggest projectile available. You can strain someone through a grill a lot easier than trying to shoot them. One simply must stop a perpetrator from continuing to place people in danger. That is the purpose of deadly force.

I do truly believe one can do what ever makes them happy. I am now convinced I should zerox the relevant pages from that particular volume and send them to Maria and have them read how and why the tests are done and see those results. My suspicion is that their information exchange might change after that. We'll see. I think those people are pretty smart to come up with the product. It's just that recommendations like this are not normal for firearms manufacturers. SIG and HK won't advise you on what ammo to use, only on the pressure rating type that is possible and nearly every manufacturer will say that reloads void your warranty. When someone recommends a specific type i.e. silvertips as a gun maker, then they cross over into the liability area which in a very litigious society that we have is not a real good idea.
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: yankee2500 on April 14, 2011, 11:43:19 PM: Seecamp also has recommended ammo.
They recommend a particular brand or two because the vast majority of the guns they produce function well on those brands and may not be as reliable with others. My pup has had no problem with any brand or bullet weight, but others have not had the same results.
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: kjtrains on April 14, 2011, 11:48:31 PM: All in all, good stuff. We all have to decide which is best. I do love the big rds. and with the exception of the R9, the bigger the grain the more I like it, all the way to the 700 gr. 500 mag; as the instructions say, hang on.
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: MRC on April 15, 2011, 11:24:10 AM: A very good discussion. I am a big 10 mm fan so I read the FBI report with a lot of interest.
A couple of questions that I have:
- Is there a newer report out that is available to the public?
- The silvertips at that time were way behind the hydro-shoks and Gold Dots design wise. Have they been upgraded at all through the years to get more cosistant expansion or are they still way behind?
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: flintsghost on April 15, 2011, 03:48:18 PM: Quote
A very good discussion. I am a big 10 mm fan so I read the FBI report with a lot of interest.
A couple of questions that I have:
- Is there a newer report out that is available to the public?
- The silvertips at that time were way behind the hydro-shoks and Gold Dots design wise. Have they been upgraded at all through the years to get more cosistant expansion or are they still way behind?

Good questions. I have to say that other than the books I have which were provided to me as a chief instructor for a state academy when I asked, they are most likely not available to the public. They are not routinely sent out to LE Departments either. That would be cost prohibitive simply because they aren't small and light and cost even at media rate postage would be high.

Hydrashoks were specifically designed for the FBI and the 10mm, originally, as a result of the famous Miami shootout, or so the story goes. They were in testing the second year when I studied at the FBI Ballistics Lab for a week learning how to do the tests. I don't have any results on the Gold Dot at all because their bonded gold dot bullet wasn't out till much later when I already had transferred back to the field. However after testing by our department, we moved from hydrashok to gold dot exclusively in handguns. I have found in my own accuracy testing that Hydrashok tends to vary greatly by caliber. I've had good results with 9mm and .38 special but in .45 and .40 found it lacking. Whereas with Gold Dot it seems to be universally good regardless of caliber although bullet weight made a big difference in .40 cal and in Short Barrel versions in a 2" S&W I shot the smallest groups I've ever seen from one of those guns. The .38 doesn't translate well to .357 however.

I have to guess that silvertips haven't been upgraded by Olin at all. The reason I make that guess is because Winchester like ATAK (Federal and Speer) and Remington deal through specific LE distributors for their LE line which is RANGER and comes in 50 rd LE boxes. Silvertips still come in 50 rd boxes and are usually sold through commercial distributors along with Winchester White Box ammo which is their bargain priced offshore made promotional type ammo. So I think that OLIN feels that silvertips still have marketing potential and good sales but that they aren't up to LE standards. They are not a +P round at all. Penetration is fairly poor in fact in the 20 yard windshield glass test, they failed to penetrate at all and none of the test rounds damaged the glass at 20 yards. And at point blank range 3 didn't penetrate auto glass at all. That of course is .380 just for an example. The 115 grain 9mm did better but not great.

The most recent book I have indicates that the FBI was heavily concentrating on 40 calibers, which of course they have gone to as most other LE departments have over the last few years. The .357 SIG is a great round and I'm not sure the .40 is as good as it is touted to be. I have finally found a couple of versions that do well in my pistols but I really had to work to find them. I am sure, however that both and the 9mm are superior to the .38 spec 158 grain lubaloy lead that we carried on duty when I started with the state in 1972. I saw the actual results of a Trooper who was shot three times in the back of the head with his own gun on scene in 1973. They didn't even make a mess but they did kill him at point blank range. After that I started pulling bullets and reloading the powder charge on my issued ammo with one of my own choosing. A practice that would have got me a very stiff suspension had anyone ever known. The range officer always suspected when I would fire my duty rounds at qualification but he never said anything. I think there were lots of cops all over the country doing "hot loads" at the time. It was even the subject of a POLICE STORY Tv episode, which made me laugh.

I suspect that Winchester Black Talon was the upgrade for silvertips and while lots of people think that is the pinnacle of ammo technology, others don't and Winchester no longer even makes it. But that's just my suspicion. I have no hard facts to prove it.
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: MRC on April 15, 2011, 06:57:44 PM: Thanks for the reply. Keep the conversation going as the magazines I read seem to print what the ammunition manufacturer's tell them. I have stayed with 115 and 124 Gold Dot in the 9mm's and Hydra-shoks in the 380 Seecamp, which isn't a real serious weapon in my opinion anyway.
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: flintsghost on April 15, 2011, 07:48:43 PM: Quote
Thanks for the reply. Keep the conversation going as the magazines I read seem to print what the ammunition manufacturer's tell them. I have stayed with 115 and 124 Gold Dot in the 9mm's and Hydra-shoks in the 380 Seecamp, which isn't a real serious weapon in my opinion anyway.

You are correct about Magazines. I wrote for a French Gun magazine, now defunct called GAZETTE DES ARMES, and did a column on things in the USA like reloading etc. I was their official US correspondant. They were pretty good and didn't edit my stuff for content at all. In the US it's a bit different, as publishers and editors don't want to offend the advertisers. So anything negative is usually edited out. When I was building custom 1911's back in the 70's and 80's part time on the side from being a Trooper, I had several magazine articles done on my work. I knew the staff at SOLDIER OF FORTUNE pretty well and had a good friend working there. Bob Brown, the editor and publisher told me that if I would do a gun for him for free he would write a good article for me. I told him, "no thanks, I have more work than I can do now. " By then I had already been in AMERICAN HANDGUNNER and COMBAT HANDGUNS and as a result was about 1 year behind in deliverys. The guys who did articles on my work paid their way. I didn't do freebies like some smith's do. My guns were for people who needed them. So I do know from experience that your observations are pretty true. Even stuff in the AMERICAN RIFLEMAN can tend to be a little biased about some advertisers. Have you ever heard them say a bad thing about Ruger, Midway, or Brownells...of course not. Those people donate millions to the NRA and are advertisers to boot. I've done business with all three and I'm not of the opinion that everything they do is gilded with gold like the NRA is. But that's life and politics. It exists in shooting too, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: C0untZer0 on May 05, 2011, 12:20:03 PM: There have not been any major improvements to the Silvertip.

Winchester certainly has introduced some significant improvements. But an ammunition manufacturer doesn’t maximize profit by just taking a tech improvement, implementing it on an old product line and say that its “New & Improved”

Ammo companies maximize profit by creating a new round, with a new name and market as a “Revolutionary Breakthrough” and “Advanced metallurgic and ballistic technology” They create a buzz about it.

Also, to a certain extent, if you make major design changes to “improve” a Silvertip, at what point is it really no longer a Silvertip – I mean, it would be a Silvertip in name only.

IMO, Winchester did come up with a significant design improvement with the Black Talon. Unfortunately they were the victims of bad press when the anti-gun faction attacked Winchester and exploited the name of the round after a deranged individual went on a “Shooting Rampage”.

Anyway that technology has been incorporated in their Ranger “T” series. Look at pictures of the old Black Talons recovered from gel and look at the Ranger Ts and you can see the similarities.

http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf

Winchester has also made improvements with their bonded rounds. The Ranger 9mm Bonded 147gr round looks like a really good performing round (have no idea how it would perform going in or coming out of a Roughbaugh).
Title: Re: Selecting your defensive round for your pistol
Post by: Reinz on May 06, 2011, 05:07:02 PM: Flintsghost - that is the second time that I have heard of a gun magazine wanting a freebie for a write up.
I know a guy that is an "unknown" whom makes awesome 1911's. One of the top gun rag editors actually had the nerve to ask him for a free gun for a write up - a sure way to stardom.
The mechanic said "no dice". I know that this move hurt him in the long run. His name has never been mentioned in this publication, but it just went against hes grain to pay off that weasel that way.