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Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: Datan on October 06, 2004, 01:19:05 AM

Title: R9s price increase and grip material change
Post by: Datan on October 06, 2004, 01:19:05 AM
Something that folks may find interesting.. spoke to Eric a couple weeks ago when ordering some springs, grip screws and a newer pin, and got some information.. Eric mentioned that they will be raising prices soon - maybe 15% or more.  I guess profit margins aren't that great right now due to cost of materials and that $100 per gun fee they have to pay.  They are also replacing the grip material with something less expensive.. evidently, carbon fiber cost just went up significantly and they are going to use a different material that looks/acts like carbon fiber.  It will be black in color rather than blue as ours currently appear - it will still have the interesting color variation that the carbon fiber grips have... anyway, thought this was interesting and that I'd share.

Personally I think the cost of the gun is reasonable considering the workmanship and materials and would be fine spending more for it.  I want to see this company around for a long time and am encouraged that they are doing what's needed to make a buck.
Title: Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
Post by: sharp on October 06, 2004, 12:42:55 PM
When I talked to Eric, he told me the new grip material was going to be a "carbon fiber look" G10 laminate.   I'm glad I got mine with the extremely COOL black/blue carbon fiber grips! ;D
Title: Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
Post by: Oscar on October 07, 2004, 10:53:07 PM
Regarding the grip material change:  When will this change go into effect?  I had ordered an R9s last May (still waiting) and am curious as to whether it will arrive with the carbon fiber or the G10 laminate grips.  
Title: Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
Post by: DDGator on October 08, 2004, 12:33:56 AM
Oscar -- I don't know when -- depends when they run out of the CF they have I suppose.  If you are curious, you can always call Eric and ask.

The price increase is a "go" and will start on the 15th of this month.  All orders placed before that date are locked in at the old price.  The exact amount of the increase hasn't been officially announced yet.
Title: R9s price increase and grip material change
Post by: TW on October 08, 2004, 12:36:53 AM
>>Oscar...

This morning Eric told me they haven't even put together a prototype grip with the new stuff...and they still have quite a few more guns to put together with the old stuff - so assuming you will get your gun in the near future I would guess you will have the original material on your gun.  Perhaps Duane will be able to address your question in more detail...?...TW<<
Title: Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
Post by: DDGator on October 08, 2004, 12:40:08 AM
TW is right -- they didn't even have a prototype G10 grip to show me yet.  Its still a little bit down the road I think.
Title: Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
Post by: Fud on October 08, 2004, 03:24:19 AM
Quote
... Personally I think the cost of the gun is reasonable considering the workmanship and materials and would be fine spending more for it.  I want to see this company around for a long time and am encouraged that they are doing what's needed to make a buck ...
I obviously don't know anything about the financials of the company or how much it is costing them to make a gun or what their profit margin is but I do know a bit about economics (I've got a Masters in the field of business administation) and here are a few observations along with some conclusions based on those observations ...


In either event, raising price at this time might not be such a good idea. There is something called a supply & demand curve ...

(http://fud-files.netfirms.com/image/private/misc/S&D.JPG)

... If the price, as indicated by the light blue line is too high, nobody will buy the product as shown in the above red zone. As the price slides down that blue line, an interest for the product begins to happen as indicated by the light green line.

As the price continues to drop, the demand for the product begins to rise. And that only makes sense -- the cheaper you offer something, the more it will be desired by people until you get to the point where you are almost giving it away and everybody wants one.

Notice that as your blue price line drops, your green demand line increases.

Ideally, you want to be selling something at the point where the two lines cross because that will MAXIMIZE the profit on the product. If you try selling at a higher price, you hurt your sales and thereby reduce income. If you sell it for less, then you've reduced your profit margin when you didn't have to do that.



By raising the price further, it could potentially reduce the amount of guns sold. What they should be doing instead is decreasing the price which will then have the effect of increasing demand and they can make up what they are losing on the extra volume.

Again, this is all just my opinion. [/list]   Having said all of that, I think that I am going to contact Eric before 15th and order a second one before the price increase  ;D
Title: Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
Post by: FJC on October 08, 2004, 08:36:09 AM
Your points about price/demand are all quite valid - however, you have to keep in mind that in order to take advantage of economies of scale, they have to be able to MEET the demand that the lower prices would generate.

Seeing as how they are a very small, hands-on shop, they are barely keeping up with demand at this point (waiting list of 5 months now, I believe).  They could expand, add workers, and increase production, but from what I've read they want to keep the operation very close-knit to keep quality as high as possible.  I believe at some point they will inevitably have to do this, as Eric and the others can only go at such a breakneck pace for so long, and so far demand doesn't seem to be tapering off.  Perhaps they'd welcome lowered demand and are targeting a "sweet spot" where they can make a decent profit on a lowered production count.

Title: R9s price increase and grip material change
Post by: TW on October 08, 2004, 10:12:01 AM
About business in general I agree with Fudster, however I think there are certain products, like the R9, which become a specialized market unto themselves.  

I likewise produce a product in one of my business's which has appeal to a specialized market and has allowed me to be at the top of my industry for over 30 years.  This despite the fact my competitors use websites and expensive advertising, and my business is essentially word of mouth.  Part of my success is the personialized after sales support I offer, and part is a unique product which I continue to pioneer.  My hope is the R9, and any offshoots, will end up the same way...meaning there will be more than enough folks like some of us who will shell out a tiddy sum of money for a special gun/servive/experience that we might not normally spend on a gun.  BTW, I likewise purchased my second gun before the increase, but would not hesitate to pay the extra had that been the case...TW<<
Title: Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
Post by: DDGator on October 08, 2004, 10:25:42 AM
I talked with Eric about this a bit, and a lot about their business philosophy in general.

I am speculating here, but I can't see any way they have even made a dent in their initial investment.  They have shipped a few hundred guns.  They have a factory full of computerized, high tech machines and a bunch of people working who arent exactly getting rich.  Not to mention years of R&D...

The fact is that they are not contemplating a price increase based on economic theory or maximizing their profit.  They are forced to increase the price to keep their revenue the same.  The previous pricing had not adequately addressed the 10% federal excise tax they pay on each gun.  Also, material costs have continued to go up.  

Believe me when I tell you that much thought and hand-wringing has gone into this price increase -- it is a necessity and not just a whim.

I can't stress enough that this is a semi-custom gun made in large part by hand.  Its a specialty product.  The orginal thought was that this gun would retail for well over $2,000.

More and more, I think those who criticize the gun's price don't understand what it is.  
Title: Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
Post by: R9SCarry on October 08, 2004, 01:15:30 PM
Duane has said much what I had in mind.

I have speculated (as an engineer) on the various aspects of this gun's development and have little trouble imaging the huge . no - HUGE - investment in time, equipment and overall R&D.

I had one project way back which was in effect a six month program ... starting with prototyping and progressive development - thru to an early workable production design, at which point my job was about done.  I worked on an hourly costing system for my time and was satisfactorily reimbursed for the most part.  However .. me being me - there were also countless hours in fact where time was ''absorbed'' by me ... ''thinking time'' .... computer time ..... things which thru my involvment and dedication were not charged out (silly me probably!).

Bottom line? ...... the total costs to my client were still immense ... not because I made a killing . no . it was the cumulative effect of the whole process ....... others besides me also being in the scheme.  The client - the manufacturer of course eventually .... had big overheads with tooling and machinery capital costs, and many other often hidden costs.

My point - in a long winded way - is that the required investment in total, even here over a mere six months can and usually does become immense.  In the Rohrbaugh case .... this is over several years ...... with no significant income for ages - just cost and more cost.

This will take a long time to recoup and while I doubt they are ''money grubbing'' in the least - will have had to give serious attention to their cash flow projections, just in order to be able to stay afloat and so maintain now the output of product., without compromizing quality.

Any price increase is always potentially bad news for the consumer but I think the R9 has a strong enough niche market to carry this thru now it is well under way.  If I had not now (just this week) got my #2 ... I would still have paid the extra needed.

That $100 Dollar tax cost they have to pay -  sux!!
Title: Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
Post by: Incursion on October 09, 2004, 11:46:12 AM
A clarification on the economics lesson: as the price drops or rises, the quantity demanded changes, not the total demand curve.  This is a distinction that most people don't account for.  Things like buyer interest and consumer tastes shift the entire demand curve.  Things like technological advances and resources shift the entire supply curve.
Title: Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
Post by: RJ HEDLEY on October 11, 2004, 09:21:57 AM
"That $100 Dollar tax cost they have to pay" - R9SCarry

---------------------

What is this tax about, that is a very high percentage !!
Title: Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
Post by: DDGator on October 11, 2004, 11:52:09 AM
They have to pay a 10% Federal excise tax...  

Title: Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
Post by: TCat on October 11, 2004, 01:17:34 PM
Quote
...but I do know a bit about economics (I've got a Masters in the field of business administation) and here are a few observations along with some conclusions based on those observations ...
Given that they're shipping orders from like May right now, I don't think your analysis takes into account the true supply-v-demand curve.  Demand is outstripping supply.  For quick delivery, you pay a premium to a middle man.

It's much better economically for the company to raise prices to the point where supply and demand are about even, given that they cannot simply increase supply.  That way the premium goes to them rather than the middle-man.

One thing I wonder is whether they might be rushing it too much as is.  Incursion's posts (http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/YaBB.cgi?board=R9S;action=display;num=1091549418;start=75#75) on his 3% failure rate thus far may reflect a need for them to slow down, rather than speed up, production.  (Or it may reflect all sorts of other things, but this is the type of out-of-box-experience that costs companies a lot in both support costs and repuation.)  I don't see a downside for Rohrbaugh in raising prices right now.  
Title: To shoot or not to shoot...is that the question...
Post by: TW on October 11, 2004, 06:59:44 PM
"One thing I wonder is whether they might be rushing it too much as is.  Incursion's posts (http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/YaBB.cgi?board=R9S;action=display;num=1091 549418;start=75#75) on his 3% failure rate thus far may reflect a need for them to slow down, rather than speed up, production.  (Or it may reflect all sorts of other things, but this is the type of out-of-box-experience that costs companies a lot in both support costs and repuation.)"...From T-Cat

I doubt Incursion's problems stem from rushing things on the production end, otherwise I should think more folks would likewise be having similar problem with their guns...yes...?...no...??  One or two with problems out of the 200 plus guns sold does not, in my mind, justify recall/reputation tarnish.  That said, I think the problem(s) do deserve further examination and fix, if possible and as appropriate.

From all that I have read regarding problems incurred by Incursion my first thoughts were that shooting technique was the culprit...something about how the gun is positioned...squeezed...whatever.  Unfortunately we do not have the means to view Incursion's shooting style on this forum...maybe you can work on that, Gator - LOL.  

As I think I raised elsewhere on this topic - perhaps this gun is simply not the gun for Incursion...!  I must say I am surprised to hear how much Incursion shoots this gun...hundreds of rounds at a session...?  I realize he is trying to figure this gun out but it is simply not made to shoot all day long.  Also, for any other gun - cleaning it twice at the range in a 300+ round session would sound a bit extreme.  But as I understand it from Eric the R9 should be broken down and cleaned every 50-80 shots.  This says to me that Incursion's gun may in fact be under lubbed for how it is being shot...again, indicating this may not be the gun for Incursion?  

I also question the idea of whiping off the factory lube???  Again - would be great if Gator could set up video loops on the forum so we could see how Incursion lubes this gun vs. factory instruction.  

I am not at all saying this as a put down of Incursion...rather an examination of his use and treatment of this gun compared to how it is meant to be treated.  Somehow I have this vision of a guy in the trenches of WWII taking on the enemy alone with his trusty Colt 45...cilp after clip after clip...  The R9 is not to be treated like the Colt.  It's more of a walking down the street late at night being confronted by the Biker King for your money and life - type of gun...as in - you say what...?...bam, bam, bam with four left over.

To Incursion...wish I had an original Colt .45 in primo condition to swap you for your R9.  But then I'd probably keep that Colt...  

Just my thoughts.  Feel free to pick them apart...but always remember how we have been taught to care and use the R9...TW<<  
Title: Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
Post by: RJ HEDLEY on October 11, 2004, 07:47:50 PM
As I read of Icursion's R9 experences, he is seemingly having some bad luck with the R9,  but I must agree with *TW's* thoughts.

I further believe, the Rohrbaugh's are quite thorough in their assembly, and pre-ship testing program.  The guys that assemble and test these weapons are not just your average employees, they ARE the heart of the Company !!  

Title: Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
Post by: Incursion on October 12, 2004, 02:11:44 PM
I'll break it down every 50 rounds this weekend.  I've been using FP-10 as the lube.  I put a drop on each of the rails and a drop on the barrel.  Everything else is just wiped down with a patch that has a single drop on it.
Title: To lube the R9...
Post by: TW on October 12, 2004, 03:20:10 PM
>>I recently received the following note from Eric when I asked about using other, non-recommended lubricants for the R9.  Over and over again he has stressed to me here and elsewhere the importance of keeping this gun well lubed - and with the lubricants they use at the factory...anything other and you can expect problems.  In a phone conversation he went so far as to project the life expectancy of the R9 as being something over 5000 shots.  I can put that many rounds through a favorite 1911 in a year...!  The R9 is not meant to serve as a 1911.  Once an individual finds the right ammo for his/her gun and becomes proficient with it - it is meant to be kept in a pocket until needed...with perhaps a clip or two put through it from time to time to keep up our skills with this very purpose built tool.  Take all this for what it's worth to you...this is not new info...as I've read bits and pieces of everything in this post here on the Rohrbaugh forum in one place or another.  This post somehow morphed from a thread topic of finances, go figure...TW<<


"...the best way to ensure the reliable function, as best we can with this firearm due to the extremely close tolerances used in it's manufacture, it is best to take the slide off after every 50 to 80 rounds and give it a wipe down and some fresh lube. The R9 is a specialty built firearm and it needs that extra bit of care, due such a machine, to be ready when you need it. This extra care will pay off with dividends! We use Super Lube PTFE on the rails, the lockup area of the barrel, a little bit on the cone of the barrel (front bushing area if you will) and the barrel lug area itself. Other areas use Mobil One Synthetic motor oil 0-30 weight. This is good for the trigger pivot area, firing pin, magazine latch area and hammer area. Do this and she should perform very well for you. Most of the guns returned to us for warranty repair have all been absent of lubrication and dirty beyond belief!  We simply can not believe it."...Eric Rohrbaugh / 4 October '04
Title: Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
Post by: Incursion on October 12, 2004, 06:22:27 PM
TW, why do you question wiping off the factory lube?  I shot 6-7 mags with the factory lube and couldn't get through a single magazine without a malfunction.  Once I got rid of the Vasoline-like lube that they use, it ran much better.  I'm going to try and keep a more detailed record of when/how my pistol jams this weekend.
Title: Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
Post by: TW on October 12, 2004, 08:10:17 PM
Quote
TW, why do you question wiping off the factory lube?  I shot 6-7 mags with the factory lube and couldn't get through a single magazine without a malfunction.  Once I got rid of the Vasoline-like lube that they use, it ran much better.  I'm going to try and keep a more detailed record of when/how my pistol jams this weekend.

>>Hi Incursion...

I question wiping off the factory lube because it was put on by the folks who not only created the gun but have more experience with R9 function than all of us on this forum combined.  If this was a case of some dollar two ninety-eight grease monkey slapping universal oil on a Ford...then I might say it's ok to experiment beyond the box, but it's not.

As to problems you are having before and after wiping off factory lube...seems that you are having issues with the R9 across the board...yes...?...no...??  That being the case, it would seem to me your problems with the R9 go beyond lubrication (although proper lubrication is important)...could be your technique(?)...maybe anxious vibes flowing from you to the gun(??)...maybe gremlins(???!!!), who knows.  Maybe it is just a "bad" gun...but then why would it work well for Rohrbaugh as it originally left the factory and then again after they re-lubbed it at the factory before sending it back to you...??  I think we all believe Eric and Karl are honest guys...so where does that leave us...?  The only thing I can think of is to examine your grip and firing technique.  Can you or anyone else figure something else to look at...?

Incursion, at this point you have a forum full of folks who would like to know what the real issue is between you and your R9.  For one - I'm sure everyone here would like to see you happy with the gun.  It's also something which may have direct implications to the rest of us shooting R9s at one time or another...so you see we have an invested interest.

To end off here I would again encourage you to lube the R9 as per Rohrbaugh factory instructions.  If you shoot the gun any other way...like too dry or dirty - it is all but insuring you will have problems.  Lube it properly - then dig for the root of your problems.  That's the best free advice I have - lol...!  I wish you all the best of luck trying to figure this all out.  Thanks for sharing in the first place...TW<<
Title: Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
Post by: Incursion on October 12, 2004, 08:59:05 PM
Well all I know is that I couldn't get through a single mag for 6-7 mags with their lube.  I shot it straight from the factory.

If worse comes to worse, I'll borrow a digital camcorder, and you guys can watch me shoot it.  I'll divx the damn thing so it'll be in high quality.
Title: Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
Post by: R9SCarry on October 12, 2004, 09:03:29 PM
Had a brief shoot late this afternoon again, with my #2 pup .... a few more mags of cheap FMJ Igman went thru perfectly ... and that was with integral and intact factory lube.  I will now clean it after the approx 40 rounds so far put thru.

Buddy with me tried a coupla mags full ... first time he'd shot anything that small .. no probs.
Title: Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
Post by: Incursion on October 12, 2004, 09:05:54 PM
Man it's frustrating when everyone else's R9s works perfectly.  I have to get this thing working in my hands.
Title: R9s price increase and grip material change
Post by: TW on October 12, 2004, 10:24:23 PM
>>Incursion, I can relate with your frustration, believe me.  I'm usually the odd guy out who can't get mechanical things to work.  But then I have this bad habit of not reading directions until I have something totally disassembled all over the floor...

Where do you live...?  Perhaps you will be close enough to one of us so that you could plan a shooting session/R9 workshop at a local gun club...?...!  What do you think???

Hmmmmmm.  Better yet - how about we grovel some to Eric about setting up an R9 Clinic somewhere...  I would be happy to chip in on it to make it worth his effort.  Besides...Eric needs to get out of the shop to enjoy the autumn air...ya know...?  What better excuse than a customer education excercise...?  Just a thought.  Hang in there, Incursion...TW<<
Title: Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
Post by: Incursion on October 12, 2004, 10:40:49 PM
I'm in Houston, TX.
Title: Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
Post by: Jax on October 13, 2004, 02:17:06 AM
Yo, Incursion...

Didn't you used to come up to Austin to go to school?

I live in Austin and have an R-9.  I'd be happy to go to the range w/ you and, if req'd, loan it to you for a couple of weeks so you could try it out side by side w/ yours.

If we could meet up somewhere, that'd work as well.

The only malf's I've seen w/ mine in several hundred rounds were directly attributable to user error when I have introduced new shooters to it - not gripping it tightly enough.  I, personally, have never had a malf w/ it.

Let me know,

Jax
Title: Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
Post by: RJ HEDLEY on October 13, 2004, 10:45:03 AM
Just maybe...... :)
Title: Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
Post by: R9SCarry on October 13, 2004, 11:25:01 AM
Welcome Jax :) ...... indeed, I have been thinking for some time of the benefits possible thru another R9 owner getting in on this - comparison etc.  Could be way to go.
Title: Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
Post by: Incursion on October 13, 2004, 12:20:38 PM
Yea, I went to UT.  I'll probably go up to Austin next weekend.  I have a friend in Liberty Hill, TX (Coronelli on Park Cities Tactical, Usual Suspects Network) with his own range.

My email address is incursion2@yahoo.com
Title: Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
Post by: Jax on October 13, 2004, 12:38:08 PM
Mail sent to your email account.

Hope we can work it out to get together this coming weekend.

Jax
Title: Figuring out the R9...
Post by: TW on October 13, 2004, 05:44:15 PM
>>Incursion...  It's AWESOME that you are getting together with Jax for some one on one with the R9s...!  Man - I really wish I could join you guys...!!  Anyway...hopefully you guys will be able to get a handle on your R9 and you can report back to the rest of us what the deal is???  Good luck...!...TW<<
Title: Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
Post by: Incursion on October 13, 2004, 09:17:59 PM
Eric left me a voicemail saying that he's sending me 2 new mags.  Maybe it's not the gun.  Both mags did jam on me though.
Title: Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
Post by: DDGator on October 14, 2004, 12:02:39 AM
I suggest you guys swap guns for the range session.  Each bring your own ammo and shoot 'em.  See what happens and record the results.  This way you are testing the ammo and the shooting technique.  Then swap the guns back and compare again.

Title: R9s price increase and grip material change
Post by: TW on October 14, 2004, 01:01:18 AM
>>Incursion...  To follow up with Gator - be sure to keep track of whos mags belong to who when you go shooting with Jax.  Hadn't thought to question the reliability of the magazines until you mentioned Eric was sending you new ones to try.  Makes sense though since you probably didn't send your mags back to Rohrbaugh when you sent the gun back to be looked over.  Doubt too whether Rohrbaugh fully test every magazine that leaves the factory with every new gun.  Wouldn't it be great (for you) if your problems rested with faulty magazines...?...!!  I still say you need to keep up with the factory lube regimen...TW<<
Title: Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
Post by: R9SCarry on October 14, 2004, 01:28:51 AM
I could maybe have mentioned this before but forgot.  Despite all my ammo tests thru my first R9 - I did notice at quite a late stage that one mag presented the top round at a seemingly other than ideal angle - even if ''fiddled'' with.  These mags worked OK most of time but, looking back - just perhaps it was the slightly ''rogue'' mag that might have given the odd FTF.

I measured the min dia across feed lips and came out at 0.310".  I sent Eric and Karl this pic and a similar one, to ask about it.  I was sent two new mags which are 0.320" across min dia of feed lips.  This is the latest mag I believe.

Just mentioning cos it strikes me the wider feed lip dimension better ensures the correct angle of round presentation to the feed ramp.  Might always be worth a check to see what mags you in fact have.

This pic is of the old mags .. one showing clearly its reluctance to allow top round to tip/present properly. GD's are shown here - the usual carry ammo.  My 0.320" mags are just fine.


(http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/thr/r9s-tests-03/mags-25-s.jpg)
Title: Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
Post by: TW on October 14, 2004, 02:07:29 AM
[quote author=R9SCarry I measured the min dia across feed lips and came out at 0.310".  I sent Eric and Karl this pic and a similar one, to ask about it.  I was sent two new mags which are 0.320" across min dia of feed lips.  This is the latest mag I believe.

>>Hi R9s...  Out of curiosity...what minimum diameter measurments do you get off the two mags which just came with your second gun...?  Measurements from my mags read .308 & .312 respectively, and I observe similar "off tilt" positioning of top bullets in each mag as shown in your pic.  However, I haven't had any problems feeding bullets from either mag...TW<<
Title: Re: R9s price increase and grip material change
Post by: R9SCarry on October 14, 2004, 02:20:09 AM
TW - my new gun has 0.320" mag lips (like my #1 gun's replacement mags) .. well, that's just with vernier calipers so - say +/- a thou or so on accuracy.  My top rounds sit just great - no reduced tilt at all .... just what I'd call ideal presentation.  Born out by reliability so far with that new gun .. more rounds thru it today.

Sounds like your mags could be earlier editions judging by those dimensions.  As I said .. my 0.310" (nom) mags fed fine for most part but - did feel that the one of mine with less than ideal tilt was potentially less than perfect.  It is perhaps a case of the smaller dimension mags feeding fine but ...... just not maybe quite as ideally.

Could be a moot point - however - the new mags are IMO better.