The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: searcher on November 08, 2004, 08:50:05 AM
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I'm undecided on which to buy. I subscribe to Gun Test and have read their July comparison. I have also read the rebuttal to that article posted on this forum. I currently have a Seecamp and am dissatisfied with it's acuracy, if thats what you can call it. I do require accuracy from my firearms and am not sure what I can expect from the R9S. Any suggestions or comments would be greatly appreciated.
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IMHO -- they are not that similar... making the choice easier.
If you plan to carry IWB, or in a fanny back, or OWB, and can conceal a PM9, you are likely to get better results with one. It will have better sights and more grip to work with. (Do be careful with the plastic mag catch release -- and be sure you don't get one of the recalled guns).
However, if you want a gun for pocket carry or other deep concealment -- the R9 is the way to go. I have owned a PM9 and do not consider it to be a very good pocket gun at all.
Of course, the above analysis is mostly practical in nature. Many R-9 owners like the look and feel and quality of the R-9 over the more blocky "Glock-like" PM9.
In response to your stated concern, I find the R-9 accuracy to be excellent.
Finally, how soon do you need it? You can buy a Kahr today -- you may or may not be able to buy an R-9 so quickly.
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It will be soley a pocket carry for the warmer months. I carry a Sig P228 IWB for the cooler months. I can order it when I swing over to the P228 which will be soon if there is a wait period of some months.
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Some people carry a PM9 in their pocket -- but ya gotta have good size pockets. Have you tried putting one in your pocket to see how it feels?
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Nope. I have never had one in my pocket. I always wear jeans on the weekends so the pockets will not be that large.
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Most people over at glocktalk.com think the Glock 26 is a pocket gun. As you can see, people have varied opinions on the subject. The PM9 might work for you as a pocket gun but the Rohrbaugh definetly will.
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Well, I'm one of those Glock guys, who carry a Glock 27 in my pants. I'm told it's some kind of symbol for something I lack??? Yes, it's a big pocket in cargo pants.
When I wear jeans, I have found that the R9 can go places that even my S&W340SC can't. I used to be regulated to my Keltec 32 when nothing else would fit. Now, I have a powerful alternative and glad of it!
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Thanks for all your help, I really appreciate it. I'm leaning towards the R9S. Spoke with Maria, think thats her name, at Rohrbaugh and was told that there is now a 4 or 5 month backlog. I guess I'd better make up my mind in a hurry.
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I have a new R9S that is now for Sale.
Still in the factory box never loaded, fired, carried or anything.
I need to carry a Glock .40 s&w.
So, now I will carry Glocks 27 3 1/2" barrel
and Glock 35 5 1/3" barrel.
If, anyone wants a R9S please make and offer.
Will ship to your FFL with copy of their FFL.
Steve
mesteve2@yahoo.com
210 325 7547
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Steve,
You should also post this in the classifieds. It shoudln't last too long.
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searcher, let me chime in here as well :D
I had a Kahr MK9 and presently have a R9S. This is how I see them stacking up ...
» Kahr can fire +P's. R9 can't. Is this important? It could be. +P 9mm's brings the performance of the caliber within the same range as a .40 or .45 -- if they expand the same and penetrate the same and displace the same amount of tissue, they're effectiveness is going to be the same. The same thing can not be said about the non +P 9mm.
» The R9 is a true DAO gun while the Kahr has to have it's striker pre-set in order for it to fire. It this important? It could be. According to reports that I have read, if a round fails to go off because of a light primer hit, in over 50% of the cases, a second strike on the primer will set it off. With the R9, all you have to do is pull the trigger a second time and you have a better than 50% chance of shooting the gun. With the Kahr, you can pull the trigger all that you want but until you re-set the striker, the gun will not fire. This could be VERY important if you find yourself in a struggle. With the Kahr, you might as well have a hammer in your hand. With the R9, you've got a better than 50% chance of being able to fire the gun.
» Overall accuracy goes to the Kahr. This is independent of the guns themselves. What I mean by this is that I can get a better grip on the Kahr and it's extra weight helps absorb the kick better and therefore I can fire it better. From a rest, reports place the accuracy of both guns about the same but because of the factors that I mentioned, I feel the Kahr is more accurate.
» The factors which makes the Kahr a better shooter in the point above also prevents it from being a true pocket gun requiring it to be carried in a holster for true concealment. Not so with the R9, it is a true pocket gun and can be carried when you're "not carrying".
So far both guns are pretty much even -- scoring different points in different areas. What ultimately swung me over to the R9 over the Kahr was the fact that I didn't like this internal striker fire design. Things could be going on in there that I am unaware of and might become defective without my knowkedge. I don't like Glocks for the same reason.
The R9 has a concealed hammer. You pull the trigger and you see the hammer rise and fall similar to revolvers and TDA/SA guns. That's what finally sold me on the R9 over the Kahr. Your requirements, obviously, might be different from mine but I hope this little checklist helps.
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I have just read the thread 'A couple of questions concerning failures' . Think I'm going to hold off a while on the R9s. Going to wait till some of the bugs are worked out.
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Wow. That is a loaded comment... Should draw some responses.
With the exception of a handful of guns, there are no problems with the R-9 design. I bet Rohrbaugh's % of "problem" guns is less than Kahr, although its an unfair comparison based on the number of pieces shipped by both. Rohrbaugh has been working on this gun for years -- they aren't doing their R&D on the public. I wouldn't wait for that reason -- but I am not you.
I have decided there is no need for me to try and talk people into buying an R-9. It either calls to you, or fills a need that nothing else will, or it doesn't. If you don't really WANT one of these guns -- its probably not worth the wait or the price.
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Called Rohrbaugh today to ask some questions. Eric answered and I had a nice conversation with him that alleviated any concerns I might have had about the R9S. Thinking seriously about buying sbrenner's R9S.
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According to reports that I have read, if a round fails to go off because of a light primer hit, in over 50% of the cases, a second strike on the primer will set it off. With the R9, all you have to do is pull the trigger a second time and you have a better than 50% chance of shooting the gun.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I wouldn't want to trust my life to a "better than 50% chance" of a round firing. If it doesn't go boom the first time, then you should perform the tap, rack and bang drill.
JD
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Searcher -- you hit on another aspect of buying a Rohrbaugh -- try getting Gaston Glock on the phone... or his brother! ;D
Second strike capability is routinely considered to be an added benefit by knowledgeable trainers -- a second strike takes a fraction of a second and can be done without the need for second hand or taking the gun off target.
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Second strike capability is routinely considered to be an added benefit by knowledgeable trainers -- a second strike takes a fraction of a second and can be done without the need for second hand or taking the gun off target.
Not nearly as much as success on the FIRST strike is. With quality ammunition and a good gun, second strikes are simply not needed. 40 years ago, perhaps; ammunition quality was much lower then. But now?
Besides, look at the reported failures for both guns (PM9 and R9); neither has a history of not setting off the primer. Feeds or ejection failures are the primary problems with almost any guns. Worrying about second strikes with these pups is a lot like being concerned that your race car's CD player may skip during the Indianopolis 500.
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I don't know about the rest of you, but I wouldn't want to trust my life to a "better than 50% chance" of a round firing. If it doesn't go boom the first time, then you should perform the tap, rack and bang drill.
JD
That's the whole point. If you are physicallyed engaged in combat with someone, you are lucky to be able to keep ONE hand on the gun. Your attacker is unlikely to give you the opportunity to perform the tap, rack and bang drill. With a R9, you still have a better than 50% chance of firing the round. With Glocks, Kahrs, etc., you have a 0% chance because pulling the trigger will do nothing.
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Worrying about second strikes with these pups is a lot like being concerned that your race car's CD player may skip during the Indianopolis 500.
According to statistics, a majority of us will never need to employ a weapon for the purpose of self defense. Yet, we still carry. As DDGator pointed out, second strike capability is considered an added benefit and it only takes a fraction of a second and can be done without the need for second hand or taking the gun off target.
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As DDGator pointed out, second strike capability is considered an added benefit
My point is that it isn't considered an added benefit any longer. It was decades ago. Nowadays if you need second strike capability, you most likely have a defective gun and shoulda been carrying something else. Contemporary ammo and guns simply do not fail that way.
Take Incursion. In his tests with Jax, he had an ejection failure with Jax's gun and five extraction failures plus one ejection failure with his gun. And Jax had the magazine pop out regularly.
But not one failure to fire. Not one.
And later in the same thread, Ben S. tells us of his similar experiences.
How would second strike capability be relevant in these cases? We can see your strong loyalty to that position, but can you make any case for it beyond, "It's nice to have"? Heck, a switch-blade bayonette would probably be statistically more valuable.
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First, let me state that I was -- as I said -- parotting the views of other knowledgeable folks. I am not a firearms trainer, nor do I play one on TV.
I have no strong loyalty to the position at all. If you want to characterize it as merely "a nice thing to have" that is fine with me. Its clearly not essential, or Glocks and Kahrs would be completely out of step.
Repeat strike capability would not have mattered a whit in the failures you describe.
I don't have enough DA semi-auto experience to judge the statistical importance of second strike capability. I know it has been important to me in revolvers with reduced power mainsprings--but that is not self defense. I defer to others for the statistics.
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I agree; failure to fires are rare unless the ammo is bad.
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I am in the process of purchasing sbrenner's R-9S. Can I dry fire this gun.
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Yes, you can dry fire it, although I am using snap caps when doing so. The trigger can be pulled repeatedly, no need to rack the slide each time. Dry firing is a good way to get used to the trigger, which feels different from many other autos, but similar to a double action revolver..
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Thanks 9mil.mouse.
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Sure thing, Searcher. I think you're going to really like your new pocket pistol. I sure like my own Rohrbaugh. When I spoke to Eric he didn't think that dry-firing it without a snap cap would do any harm, but members of this forum recommended that I use a snap cap, and I thought about it, and since I had some, I'm using them. Wouldn't want to hurt my nice little pistol you know! ;D
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As the poster above, I have a PM9. I bought it last July when I ordered my R9S. My intention was to be armed with a pocket carry piece right away, and practicing/getting used to pocket carry while my R9S was being made. The PM9 has proved itself beautifully.
My R9S arrived today. I have to get to the range to "break" it (me) in. Then I have to wait for one of those fine HedleyHolsters.com pocket holsters to arrive before I can carry it. (My PM9 already has one.)
Then I have to decide what to do with my PM9 self defense system (Kahr, Hedley pocket holster, Mr. Softy IWB holster, 3 6-rounder mags, K&D double mag carrier) when I finally migrate to the R9S (the ultimate pocket pistol). Sell the PM9 "system" and recoup some of my investment toward the R9S? -OR- Keep it as an alternative, get it dirty, work doors in the Florida sand pistol? I just haven't decided.
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dmobrien2001,
Having both the PM9 and the R9 next to each other, I was wondering what your thoughts are with respect to contrasting the two guns as far as design, features, etc.
It would also be interesting to get your opinion on range performance, when you get to that point. :)