The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: dmobrien2001 on May 20, 2005, 11:09:43 PM
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See them tumbling down
Pledging their love to the ground
Lonely but free I'll be found
Drifting along with the tumbling tumble weed
Just a small rant. The FAQ ammo tests and my own experiments demonstrate that the R9 is prone to cause some rounds to tumble (we'll that's a bit strong, I assume some bullets actually travel with a bit of yaw, but one FAQ expansion test in newsprint suggested actual sideways entry is possible).
Per the FAQ, the Rohrbaugh has 0.25" freebore designed into the barrel to relieve peak pressure and thus a particular bullet may not engage the rifling squarely causing the yaw/tumble.
The FAQ writer seems to accept this explanation, and the consequences of this design choice. I'm not exactly thrilled by it, myself. Has this been discussed on this forum? Perhaps I missed it.
Some R9 critics view this "design decision" a bit suspiciously. The R9 already suffers from many critiques like "custom" price tag, extreme waiting time, inability to shoot +P ammo, European style mag release, lack of slide lock, lack of nightsights, and so on. Each of these can be discussed and evaluated logically, but the tendency not to plant a bullet squarely in a target is a bit hard to "defend".
Is there a "plan" by the design team to address this at some point in the future?
Any plans to address different prefered ammo choice besides GDHP in 115 or 124? Some of us prefer 147 weight 9mm.
Or am I just suffering from buyer's remorse :o ;D
Ok, discuss this among yourselves.
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If you are having buyers remorse I am sure we can figure out something for me to take that off your hands.
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I will address some of your points and allow others to hit the rest...
Some R9 critics view this "design decision" a bit suspiciously.
Who? What is "suspicious" about it? Some conspiracy to make bullets tumble?
The R9 already suffers from many critiques like "custom" price tag,
Its more of a "semi-custom" price for a semi-custom gun.
extreme waiting time,
Something Rohrbaugh has taken extreme measures to address, but it happens to lots of things early in their product life if they are much anticipated and somewhat revolutionary -- Mazda Miatas, PT Cruisers, Nintendo 64s, etc.
inability to shoot +P ammo,
A design choice necessary to fullfil the mission of the smallest possible 9mm autoloader.
European style mag release,
A design choice -- the heel release was believed to be better for a pocket gun and less likely to be inadvertantly released. Given that this is not a speed-load type gun... it was deemed the best choice.
lack of slide lock,
A design decision to make the gun as simple, reliable and thin as possible.
lack of nightsights,
Lack of nightsights! Heck, the designers had to have thier arms twisted to put sights on the gun. They have no idea why you would want night sights on this gun! ;D
and so on. Each of these can be discussed and evaluated logically,
Yep. Guess I just did. It has nothing to do with logic -- just and understanding of what this gun was designed to do.
but the tendency not to plant a bullet squarely in a target is a bit hard to "defend".
I am not sure I agree with your characterization of the gun's performance. Nor am I sure that it completely matters unless you are relying upon your hollow points expanding to get the job done. I am no ballistics expert and I will let others address these issues.
Is there a "plan" by the design team to address this at some point in the future?
Don't know. If it will require the elimination of the free bore, it isn't possible without making a gun larger --- which would make it a different gun.
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Yeah -- the color didn't work as well as I thought. >:(
I am busting your chops a bit -- poking fun. :P
This potential has been known since Gun Tests tested the gun. The issue is what does it mean for practical purposes.
This gun is a real compromise. You have to give up a lot to get the gun this size. The question is whether you can live with the compromises. I don't believe that Karl considers this tendancy to be a problem, or necessarily correctable.
Maybe it varies by gun or by ammo or rotation of the earth or whatever -- but I haven't noticed it in my gun.
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Speer Gold Dot -- sometimes 115g, sometimes 124.
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>>As far as digestible ammo... Lets not forget CCI Blazer with brass case and FMJ heads, again in .115. I haven't yet tested this through myself but have heard and suspect this "pratice" ammo works best of all in the R9...in regards to reliability, clean target hole, and grouping. Can anyone else comment on this...?...TW<<
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Hay gang, The R9 is not a race gun,space gun or IPSC gun. It is a belly gun or pocket pistol. To have a small pocket carry (all the time) gun in a real caliber of 9mm is just wonderful. Not only that but it is very well made, just like a custom gun is, frosting on the cake. So, lets not lose sight of what this gun really is-a last ditch save your life weapon that one always carries. All the other items listed are not really necessary in this type of gun. AS for ammo, why do some folks try to re-invent the wheel. The R bros., have stated what ammo works why not just accept that! 9mm +P ammo is not what the pistol was designed to shoot. What about recoil? If all those bells, lights & etc., are what you want-then the R9 may not be what you should buy. Regards, Tom
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I've been running 147-grain Remington Golden Sabers through my R9s without noticing any keyholing/tumbling. I'll check my targets even more closely the next time out, but so far so good.
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dmobrien2001, if you want to get rid of some of that RA9T I can take it off your hands...
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I, for one, would not refer to Gun Test's data as support of a point I was trying to make.. These guys seem to be "making copy" to fill out an article, in which two Pistols are "compared". One must "Lose" in order for the other to "Win" ...
dmobrien Don't see this as a flame, it's just another point of view.. If I had a brand of ammo that tumbled, I would try something else.. For this type of a weapon, tumbling could be an asset.. ;)
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I guess killing the messager[GT] was clouding my mind.
I do not/ will not read their "Stuff", unless I find it laying around, unattended.. :D
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For this type of a weapon, tumbling could be an asset.. ;)
Although I have not observed any tumbling/keyholing in the targets I have used with my R9s, I figure that a "tumbling" bullet from an up-close-and-personal self-defense pistol such as a Rohrbaugh, Guardian, or Seecamp would simply make a bigger hole in the BG.
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Although I have not observed any tumbling/keyholing in the targets I have used with my R9s, I figure that a "tumbling" bullet from an up-close-and-personal self-defense pistol such as a Rohrbaugh, Guardian, or Seecamp would simply make a bigger hole in the BG.
I disagree. Yes, the hole has to be big enough, but also DEEP enough to penetrate a vital organ or central nervous system component. "Energy dump" is a myth.
A bullet entering sideways will not penetrate very deep.
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Certainly it is important for the round to not tumble. A bullet only expands when it hits something head on and a sideways bullet will not expand, nor will it make a "bigger hole". A sideways, non-expanded bullet will actually probably penetrate deeper (almost like a non-HP round) because it's cross section would be smaller than an expanded bullet hitting head on.
It seems to me that putting a little effort into finding a good self defense round that cycles reliably and doesn't "tumble" should be your focus if you like the gun as opposed to all this breathless talk of polls and investigations.
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dmobrien:
I fully respect your opinions and your right to disagree with my own. I therefore hope that you will equally respect my right to express doubt as to whether the concept of "energy dump" (myth of not) is relevant to the subject of tumbling/keyholing of a bullet from a 9mm pocket pistol.
And so, just to continue this very interesting dialogue, here is a rather provocative posting on the subject which appeared on the Firing Line forum (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-47579.htm):
"Dr45ACP
"Sanow doesn't understand why people die after being shot.
"I am a surgeon, have operated on many GSW victims.
"No handgun, including 357, 9mm, etc, is a 'high energy' or 'high velocity' round. Energy and velocity are more important when we are talking about rifle calibers. With respect to high powered rifles, a shock wave of energy does spread out at impact and devitalizes a large area of tissue by disrupting small blood vessels, etc. The effects of this, however, may not be immediately obvious to the eye, though it will help to incapacitate the victim.
"Handguns are low energy, low velocity weapons. They do not have this effect. The primary determinants of their lethality is shot placement and the size of the defect they create.
"The cross sectional area of a 45 cal bullet is about 50% larger than for a 38 cal bullet, and therefore 50% more blood will be lost over a certain time. Or a 50% larger hole will be made in a criminals brain, heart, lung, etc.
"My experience has been that people with large holes shot through them are more likely to die than those who have small holes. Big holes are harder to fix. More tissue is destroyed.
"I have never seen anyone with an injury that I would attribute to 'energy' from a certain handgun round. All I see are holes that have to be repaired.
"Velocity and energy for a handgun round is important because it increases the chances a hollowpoint will expand on impact.
"Finally, as far a 9mm bullets tumbling: they certainly do. But so do 22, 25, 38, 40, and 45!"
I yield the floor to the Honorable Gentleman across the aisle.
RS
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I'll keep a back seat - most know my thoughts I think thru the FAQ (BTW - that site will be down from approx 2pm EDT Tuesday 31st - for about 6 hours - the server is being relocated).
Far as I am concerned the tumble aspect is relatively occasional - one or two guys fired my #2 R9 yesterday and with just good ol FMJ WWB at about 10 yards - all holes seemed clean - certainly any tumble if present was barely starting.
I am firmly a believer that this gun will only see close range combat - and frankly, the least of my concerns is if just one Gold Dot should vere a bit - when there are 6 others available. I accept it as a minor compromize I guess.
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With all due respect to Sanow's experience, he was talking about 9mm ball ammo vs .45. Nobody I know uses 9mm ball ammo for a defensive gun. I sure wouldn't.
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Certainly it is important for the round to not tumble. A bullet only expands when it hits something head on and a sideways bullet will not expand, nor will it make a "bigger hole". A sideways, non-expanded bullet will actually probably penetrate deeper (almost like a non-HP round) because it's cross section would be smaller than an expanded bullet hitting head on.
It seems to me that putting a little effort into finding a good self defense round that cycles reliably and doesn't "tumble" should be your focus if you like the gun as opposed to all this breathless talk of polls and investigations.
1) A keyhole round does NOT penetrate as deep. It's cross section is larger than an expanded round from the moment of impact through completion of penetration. While a HP doesn't expand until some few inches of penetration in response to the medium it travels in.
2) Yes, I agree. Finding a good SD round that doesn't tumble is a good idea. There is perhaps a dozen name brand rounds that I could evaluate. Looking at all the targets in the FAQ ammo tests shows few targets that don't exhibit some tendency to keyhole.
And thanks for the condescending remark. I appreciate your concern about my "breathless talk of polls and investigations". This pistol shouldn't do this, to one degree or another, with nearly every available premium SD ammunition.
Smallest 9mm pistol in the world: nearly $1000
Very exclusive ownership: 9 month wait
Keyholes: Priceless :'(
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Looks like Win 115 SilverTip JHP is the lack of tumble winner. Too bad. Not a newer bullet design.
http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/thr/r9s-tests-03/basefile/targets.htm
(http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/thr/r9s-tests-03/images/targets/silvertip-115jhp.jpg)
Based on evidence from the FAQ writer's own targets. Few instances of lack of keyhole being evidenced in any ammo and there are plenty of ammo brands to view.
This is my last word on this subject.
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>>Quite frankly, I think the Drifter (dmobrien2001) makes some good points, and I hope those last words of his WON'T be his last on the subject...because I think the subject of keyhole flight warrants further investigation, and hopefully answers to help solve the problem and improve on the design of the R9, as might be necessary.
To do this, I believe it will speed up this process if we all work together, and hopefully provide useful input that Karl and Eric can work with. So the R9 may not be perfect...? So what...!...and what else is...?...!! This does not diminish my appreciation for the R9 at all - particularly given I have a couple bullet types which seem to work well in my guns. I will continue to carry it, with confidence.
I look forward to the opportunity to learn more about the R9 and perhaps be a part of helping to improve on the design of my favorite Pocket Pistol. We have a rare thing here with this forum, and the many knowledgeable people who participate and contribute, like the Drifter. Obviously he knows more about the subject than I do. I hope we can learn to face this problem together and be a part of the solution...together. Pie in the sky...? Maybe...but we won't know if we don't try, and better learn to learn from one another, and agree to disagree from time to time. **TW stumbles off the soapbox and goes to sit quietly in the corner...Yeah, right - LOL...!**
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I too would like to see more study on this aspect of this pistol. I have not seen any tumbling with my two but I will now be inspecting targets much closer. If in fact this is happening I agree with TW, we need to document it and work to fix it although I would have thought that if this was a problem it would have been evident in design & development. Lets all check our targets closely and find out if this tumbling is barrel specific or production wide.We can only make a great gun better by working together and reporting real world data back to the producers.
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New thread by mjt HERE (http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/YaBB.cgi?board=R9S;action=display;num=1117455593) on this subject - to which I have replied with some of my own thoughts again.
I agree with TW - any and all observations we have on this can only be useful. Given time, there is much further testing and evaluation I'd like to do.
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New thread by Logical HERE (http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/YaBB.cgi?board=R9S;action=display;num=1117455593) on this subject - to which I have replied with some of my own thoughts again.
I agree with TW - any and all observations we have on this can only be useful. Given time, there is much further testing and evaluation I'd like to do.
I think you mean a new thread by "someone else"....wasn't me.
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Sorry Logical - my bad! it was mjt. I'll correct my post above.
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Not posting, just making notes:
From http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/YaBB.cgi?board=R9S;action=display;num=1091220026
Our rifling is a 1:16 right hand twist - a standard for 9mm in the industry
From http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?model=905I-SSch&category=Revolver
Barrel Length: 1-3/4"
Rate of Twist: 1:9.5"
From http://www.kahr.com/pistols_PM9093.html
Barrel 3.0", polygonal rifling; 1-10 right-hand twist
From http://www.teamglock.com/Glock-Buyers-Guide/Glock-26.htm
Barrel LENGTH 3.46in/88mm
Length of Twist 9.84in/250mm
From http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/FAProdSpecsView?model=13008
Barrel Length: 3.9"
Twist: 1:10" RH
Hmmm, G-T called the R9 ROT about half the Kahr... Man, were they way off. :-/ 1:16 vs 1:10. Industry standard, however, is a bit faster than 1:16...
PS: Karl told Maria to have me send back my "early" serial number gun... more when it returns.