The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: SAWBONES on September 21, 2005, 11:07:07 PM
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Hello all. I just registered here. I see a number of folks I recognize, and some may recognize my moniker from other gun-related BBs, as I belong to a lot of 'em.
I bought a new R-9S today.
I had perused this forum for some time before deciding to actually get one.
Frankly, some targets posted by members here had made me concerned that perhaps this little gun's point of impact wasn't that well regulated with point of aim (I'd seen some posts that seemed to show a tendency to hit left of center), but I was gratified to find that my particular example put all rounds in or at least on the edge of the 2" bull at 5 yards today. It may do better, but that's as good as I can hold, and that's quite good enough for me, with a little pistol of this type.
Every one of the first 10 cartridges was a FTF. After that, things improved till by 100 rounds of Federal 9BP 115grJHP and Federal American Eagle 115grFMJ, FTFs were rare, and precision certainly improved as things "settled in".
How many rounds are recommended for a reasonable "break in"?
Since it's recommended that outer recoil spring be replaced every 250 rounds, I'd better get some spares!
The SuperLube grease recommended here can't be had at Ace Hardware in Salt Lake City. Dunno why, but it isn't stocked in any of their stores here; I checked.
They can order it, but if anyone can recommend an online source, I'd prefer to simply get it via the 'net.
Meanwhile, I've lubed the little bugger with Wilson's Ultima-Lube grease, which will hopefully work OK till I can get the other.
On field stripping, it was difficult to drift the link pin out, even with tension taken off; it's tight!
Of course I had to remove the right grip panel to see what everything under there looked like. *Sprooiing!* Then I had to figure how to reassemble the trigger spring (not too hard).
Has anyone here disassembled the slide beyond field stripping? I'd like to remove the FP to clean it and the FP channel occasionally, but if the FP stop at the rear fits like one on a 1911, it's certainly tighter than a "press-fit"; I couldn't budge it! Any recommendations on this?
Also, I see that the extractor is held in place by a roll pin; has anybody replaced this with a solid pin? (I hate roll pins.)
Anyway, I'm pleased with the little bugger.
Best.
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SAWBONES, welcome to the forum.
I hope you enjoy the new R9 and all the fine people here.
The following link is a good source of Super Lube. They shipped right away for me.
http://www.heartlandtackleservice.com/
I had a hard time finding Mobil 1 0-30W, and bought it on the internet. Pretty dumb, huh?
Now I think many agree that any high-quality lubricant will be fine.
The standard pressure Gold Dots are highly recommended by the factory.
I'm soon scheduled for the first dis-assembly and cleaning, so cannot speak much on that subject.
Welcome, again. This is a great place to visit on the Internet.
Bill
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Speaking of grip removal -- I got my nice set of Craftsman allen wrenches out, and tried to remove the screws -- the wrench started to bend pretty good, but no movement from the screw -- I backed off, and figured I better ask -- could there be anything i was doing wrong -- are the screws coated w. loctite?
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Welcome Sawbones, Did you do that 100rds in one session? If you did you're a better man than I am. The R9 is accurate well beyond 5yds. I have had good groups at 25yds. rested. Again welcome and have fun with it. :D
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Thanks, guys, for the welcoming words.
Yes, I did the 100 rounds in one 20 minute session, freehand, standing.
Recoil wasn't punishing by any means, far less than shooting a S&W 340PD (a Scandium alloy J-frame revolver) with premium .357 Magnum 125gr+P JHP, which I've done extensively but without enjoyment. :'(
FWIW, I'd read posts here about putting grip tape on the frontstrap and backstrap, and so I went and bought some just in case, but it doesn't look like I'll necessarily need it.
I was rather in a hurry, and the place I had to go to buy the pistol (Impact Guns) was about an hour drive from work, and I had to get back but didn't want to forego at least starting to break the little dingus in, and seeing how it could shoot.
I probably won't even try shooting it at very long distances, except to see if I can measure spread, for fun.
I was shooting at 5-10 yards yesterday.
My first three shots were right of center, then as the pistol continued to settle in, the rounds were pretty much on target, or at least as well as I can see and hold.
I won't carry it till it seems thoroughly reliable, but I've got leather in pocket and belt varieties on the way from Matt Del Fatti, who also happens to be a left-handed Rohrbaugh owner, like me.
Gotta locate some 115gr Gold Dot JHPs to try next, and get some SuperLube!
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SAWBONES:
Welcome aboard!
I'm with Newt on that 100 rounds in one session! I called it quits after about 67 on the first outing with my R9s. So far, mine has been flawless -- thankfully. As far as its accuracy is concerned, I've been able to keep my shots in the center mass of silhouette targets at distances up to 25 yards. I'm satisfied with that, since the Rohrbaugh was designed as a close-range defensive weapon.
Again, welcome to the Forum.
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Sawbones, welcome to the forum. I am also a left handed Rohrbaugh owner. Perhaps we should start a sub category for southpaw R9 shooters.
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".... a sub category for southpaw R9 shooters."
I'm for that, if we ever have enough. Southpaws, unite!
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BTW, after shooting maybe 50 rounds yesterday, I noticed some modest numbness developing on the inside (the side facing the middle finger) of my trigger (index) finger tip, from the trigger edge hitting the side of the finger during recoil, so I'm by no means immune to the little gun's recoil effects, but given its purpose as an easily carried hideout primary or backup gun, it's certainly an acceptable price to pay for each outing with it!
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BTW, after shooting maybe 50 rounds yesterday, I noticed some modest numbness developing on the inside (the side facing the middle finger) of my trigger (index) finger tip, from the trigger edge hitting the side of the finger during recoil, so I'm by no means immune to the little gun's recoil effects, but given its purpose as an easily carried hideout primary or backup gun, it's certainly an acceptable price to pay for each outing with it!
Thank you, Doctor. That report gives this rapidly aging "Cold Warrior" some small comfort. 8)
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Welcome sawbones - glad you have your gun. :)
I personally think break-in of approx 100 should usually do it - by which stage too the best ammo should be determinable - best for your own gun.
My main soreness is the strong hand ring finger, which can get a bit beat up after a lot of rounds - consequence of such a small grip.
I wouldn't strip much beyond field strip to be honest - I reckon it'll be a long time before FP etc needs looked at. I have considered but not tried - a blast thru FP channel with Carb cleaner followed by high pressure air blast - and finally careful lube.
I have not asked Eric this but - I would consider a brief ''re break-in'' after new spring fitting - to bed the spring and ease it a tad. My two R9's are now broke in and pretty much rest between occasional coupla mags for practice.
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Another southpaw R9s owner here. I'm an experienced shooter who shot competitively in college and has owned literally dozens of handguns of all types. Nevertheless, I've had ongoing problems with my R9s since I got it last month. Karl Rohrbaugh re-designed the mag release on my pistol to address magazine self-eject problems I was having. These mostly fixed the problem, but now it's jamming. :( Rohrbaugh Firearms is attentive and concerned, but could not duplicate any problems I've had with the gun.
I go back to the range tomorrow with a friend. If he has problems, the gun goes back to the factory, again. I'll post more about the problems in that case.
Perhaps it's an altitude thing, Sawbones (although I can't see how that makes sense), because the Rohrbaugh factory has no problem with my gun and it was jamming with everything when I got it back.
Anyway, my first range session was c. 125 rounds (I also don't find it to be all that onerous to shoot, but then I've owned a 21-ounce Ti .41 mag snubby :o ), my second about 25, then it got sent back and Karl and Eddie shot it, then I got it back and put another 100 through it. I've just gone to the second recoil spring (the first one was short and thrashed).
Recent problems jamming were with WWB, 9BPs, Silvertips (recommended to me specifically by Karl as his carry round), and 147-gr Gold Dots (which actually seemed to do better than the other rounds). I really hope my friend is able to successfully shoot my gun tomorrow (which would mean that I am doing something wrong and not the gun), since I'm really getting sick of the problems I'm having with this $900 pocket pistol that my wife gave me for a tenth anniversary present. (The tenth anniversary is today, by the way. :D )
It cost a fortune, I don't feel I can rely on it so I don't carry it, I'm sick of calling the factory, and I'm sick of looking at the thing and worrying about it - NOT what my wife intended for a landmark anniversary present to me! >:( (I had our jeweler make her a nice diamond ring . . . .)
Sorry to hijack the thread with my train-of-worry. :-[
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I hear ya Erich. I don't want a pistol to be anything other than thoroughly reliable either.
Judging from some folks' experiences here, my FTFs with each of the first ten rounds through my gun isn't typical, and I've now noticed a significant difference in the two supplied mags' tendency to properly feed the first round. (I tried only one mag during my first outing.)
One will consistently "nose dive" the fed round, irrespective of whether it's the first or last in the mag, and whether the slide is retracted and abruptly released or if it's eased forward, while the other mag consistently feeds rounds irrespective of order in mag and irrespective of whether the slide is snapped vs. "led" forward.
The mag which works reliably seems to have the feed lips just a bit wider than the other. I haven't measured yet, but I will.
IME, trying to bend mag feed lips as a fix for errant 1911 mags is a losing proposition, as they always deform again, but maybe these are fixable. Dunno yet.
Anyway, my trouble is obviously a mag feed issue, so I'll be calling Rohrbaugh and ordering some new mags today, along with a stock of extra recoil springs, and I'll also have to try the Silvertips and Gold Dots.
I want rounds that are reliable in feeding, accurate and precise on target and (hopefully) have effective terminal ballistic properties, hopefully not too tall an order!
As regards your current trouble, can you describe what exactly happens with "jamming", that is, is it a failure to feed or failure to extract, and is it circumstantial (related to any factor you can recognize, such as bullet ogive type, ammunition style, gun hold, position of fed round in magazine, etc.) or otherwise able to be characterized? It's the rare, unpredictable malfunctions that are the hardest to diagnose, obviously.
Best.
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Thanks for the concern, but I don't want to get into details/web diagnosis until I've had a chance to shoot it again with another experienced shooter. Then, if I still have problems, I'll bring it up with Karl and post in detail here.
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Sawbones, Welcome!!
LCP and Erich, ok guys I am left handed also, so a sub culture club is in order. Lets do it!!!!!
Erich, when your friend shoots it watch him closely and have him do the same with you. It could be something small and simple.
Tom
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Thanks, guys.
I called Maria today and ordered some spare magazines, springs and screws.
Unfortunately, magazines are backordered.
Maria talked to one of the Rohrbaugh brothers about my problematic mag, and whichever one it was said to send my non-feeding mag back and they'd make it right, so I'm off to the package-sending store now.
Hmmm, looks like a fair number of left-handed Rohrbaugh owners are present here!
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It appears that the southpaws are coming out of the woodwork.
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Welcome, Sawbones.
I'm right handed but also suffered tenderness on the side of my trigger finger. My fix was skateboard tape on the front and back straps. The tape keeps the gun from wiggling around, I guess.
In firing a few rounds weak handed, I found that it was a harder to resist the torque than it is when firing right handed. Maybe the direction of the rifiling really does make a difference?? Lack of left-hand practice on my part?
I broke my first session into two parts so I could field strip, inspect, and re-lube. With two hundred rounds on my R9, my only concern is the heavy contact between the bottom of the barrel and the frame rails. Other threads indicate this condition is 'normal'. In any event, it hasn't changed in the second hundred rounds.
I agree that 100 rounds is enough break-in for this particular pistol. The only F-T-F I've experienced on my R9S is when I use the Winchester White Box FMJ stuff. Feeding was okay, but primer strikes looked light compared to Speer & Remington. I had bought one of those economy sized boxes of Win White box, so I'll suffer thru the occasional F-T-F on the range until they're used up. ;)
The firing pin comes out very easily, if you are so inclined. I push the pin in with a toothpick until it clears the firing pin retainer. Then carefully slide the toothpick and retainer down until the hole is past the firing pin. CAREFULLY!! You don't to have the firing pin & spring shoot across the room. I like to clean out the firing pin tunnel and firing pin. Then I re-lube letting a tiny drop of oil run down the pin (wipe off the excess before reassembling.)
Re: Erich's comments about Karl Rohrbaugh recommending Silvertips. I called Rohrbaugh the other day to get a clarification Karl wasn't available, but Maria assured me the recommendation is Speer GDHP in 115 or 124 grain. Maybe Karl mis spoke?? I've used Silvertips in other guns and found the tip is a pretty easy to deform. So I was happy to switch to Gold Dots, which have a great reputation in the field.
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I ordered two magazines, a recoil spring and a set of grip screws about a month ago. When I called the other day I was told it is going to be awhile since the mags they are getting are going to new pistols. The are having issues with their magazine vendor and the time it takes to get their magazines. If anyone can think of any other parts I should add to this order please let me know.
Thanks!
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Thanks BY for the info - so instead of waiting for an extra mag it is better to buy another R9 that has an extra mag with it.
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I happen to have some leftover Kahr PM9 magazines that certainly fit into the R-9S magwell and are the same height as the R-9S mags. The R-9S mags also fit perfectly into mag pouches designed for the Kahr PM9 mags.
I wonder if these Kahr mags would work in the R-9S?
I'm not eager to try this, but the Kahr mags are readily available, while the Rohrbaughs aren't, and I can't find any vendors with "aftermarket" mags for the R-9.
Anybody with any experience with this?
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I don't recommend using the other mags in your Rohrbaugh. You could try it, but you’re probably going to get more failures to feed properly.
On more thing about the Rohrbaugh magazines. It appears they are getting a handle on the problem of not being able to get these in a timely manner which the solution includes but not limited to manufacturing them in-house. It just takes some time to work through this.
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Back months ago when my pistol went back and I spoke with Karl about it, he told me he carries silvertips in his R9. I'm certian about that. This makes sense. If you look at a silvertip compared to most any other HP 9mm round, the silvertip looks narrower at the tip, which I expect would improve feeding.
The problem is, silvertips are not great bullets. Speer GDHP is much, much better SD ammo, as are Federal Tactical and Winchester RA9T rounds. Silvertips are old technology, non-bonded obsolete ammo.
Plus, I have a lot of trouble finding it :(
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Yeah, Karl and I talked for some time about Silvertips and why he carries them.
By the way, at the range today my R9s worked flawlessly for my friend. It wouldn't work at all for me, though I tried and tried, and my friend carefully watched me and agreed I was doing everything correctly. His kid, it sometimes worked for. I'd put it away in frustration when the kid said, "Remember when your Kel-Tec P32 did the same thing - it wouldn't function properly for you because it was too thin for your hand?" All of a sudden a lightbulb went on in all of our heads. 8)
My hands are weird - I have very thin palms and decent musculature on the bottom of my thumb and edge of my palm. What was happening was that I wasn't getting enough lateral (left to right) pressure on the thin gripframe of the R9s, and it was moving somewhat in my hand despite the very strong front-to-back hold I had on it.
I solved the problem the same way that I did for the P32 (that I no longer have - what's the point? ;) ), I inserted my weak hand thumb against the pistol's gripframe directly under my strong hand thumb, and used the additional thickness provided by my weak hand thumb as sort of a "frame thickener" that allowed lateral pressure against the pistol's gripframe.
The gun worked flawlessly for me from then on, with anything I put through it. ;D I'm so darn happy - I actually did a little dance out there on the range! :D
Anyway, come Monday I'll be ordering some extra recoil springs from Maria and letting her and Karl know that all problems that I've been having with my R9s are now solved. What a blessing it is to have friends to go to the range with, friends who remember your past troubles with guns better than you do! :)
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Erich,
That was very interesting. At first I thought you may be having the problem of a high thumb that was discussed a few weeks ago. This is some information that could help others and I'm sure the company will be interested in your cure for future reference. You need some was to get a thicker grip.
Congratulations again. We could all feel your fustration.
Dave
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Yeah, Karl and Eddie have been very good about following-up (as I mentioned up-page), so I'll be sure to let them know what it was and what I did with it.
I thought about adding one of those Hogue grip enhancers or one of those cell phone sticky pads but rejected the idea both for aesthetic (love that carbon fiber look!) and practical reasons (I want this gun to be as thin as possible for front-pocket carry, and I want it to be slick to come out of the pocket quickly).
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Well Erich you could always go around wearing a glove on only one hand like Michael Jackson. I still find this interesting on the cause of your problem.
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Erich, Im concerned if a weapon always needs two hands to fire, as you should be. Hope I understood your theory, it sounds as if your gun is useless in many defensive situations when one handed shooting might be required, now that really troubles me!
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Well, it's very nice of you to be concerned, but I'm okay with it. It's not like the R9s is the only weapon I have on me at any time, so it's really not what I would go to in most defensive situations. ;) Besides, now that I know what the issue is, I can work on developing a Rohrbaugh-only one-hand-grip that has lots of lateral force. And even if it doesn't repeat, a one-shot derringer (as Karl Rohrbaugh never seems to tire of saying, he thinks of his pistols as modern derringers) is not completely useless. :) Ultimately, though, everything has its limitations: I've never thought of the R9s as the be-all-and-end-all of defensive gunning for me - and I suspect that very few folks here think of theirs as such.
One of the things that occurred to me last night (when I should have been sleeping) is that this issue probably wouldn't have come up if I'd been more of an side-to-side pressuring Isoceles shooter instead of a front-to-back Weaver beaver. (Score another point for Andy Stanford in the great Iso-vs-Weaver debate! :D ) Just the nature of the interface between my shooting style, my hand, and the small grip frame on this particular pistol, I guess. I'm so delighted that we figured it out and that now I can rely on the R9s. :)
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Erich, thats a lesson for all the folks who have problems with their R9 shooting good is to have a shooting type friend go with you and watch what happens. Also take ones time in shooting and working on the problem
Tom
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I finally located some 115 Silvertips, and they performed flawlessly. What I really notice is the smooth feed. The GDs would catch during the feed, although most of the time they would continue to feed anyway.
I'm sorry to hear that the Silvertips are old technology. After my experience testing them with my R9s I won't be carrying anything else.
My hand must be the exact right shape and size for this gun, because I have never had any of the type of problems you discuss here, Erich.
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A female customer of mine, stopped by to visit and she had some problems at first. She got with her shooting coach and found out she was limp wristing the gun. He worked on her grip and she has had no problems since. She also out shoots her husband. He has large hands. She is very happy with the gun.
It seems that most of us are excited to go out and shoot the pup. So we end up rushing the process. Some then have problems. If we slow down and ease into shooting the pup with a good partner and develop a good grip and shoot it slowly with attention to detail, the problems should be little or none.
Just a thought.
Tom
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If we slow down and ease into shooting the pup with a good partner and develop a good grip and shoot it slowly with attention to detail, the problems should be little or none.
Just a thought.
Tom
Tom, that's a fine thought for a first shooting session or range work. When someone is coming at you with a knife or eyeing your daughter as you walk through a parking garage, are you going to be thinking about slowing down and getting just the right grip?
These pistols were designed for just one thing; self defense. To that end, they ned to be 100% with less then perfect handling. We're told to carry lots and shoot very little. That means limited practice.
I understand that many and most of the R9s that have shipped work perfectly. However, there are enough reports here of failures to indicate that the gun is very picky and that there are probably still a few issues that need to be worked out.
I think we and Rohrbaugh need to be honest, admit that there are a few warts, and focus on finding a solution that works for everyone. This is the only way the R9 can improve.
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Yes, however my customer reports are that with time aqnd practice/shooting (with someone watching) works out most of the problems.
Can there be problems with a gun.......yes.
Tom
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As Richard Petty once said, (paraphrased) the harder I worked(practiced), the luckier(better) I got.