The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: Michigunner on September 24, 2005, 09:52:20 PM
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I now carry with the R9S chamber loaded, 6+1. I think there is too much chance of failure trying to rack the slide when needed.
While we always see advice in owner's manuals to carry empty, the recommendation in our R9 manual is the most convincing I've seen. It sounds like a rather sincere request.
Have any of you decided to follow their recommendation?
Below is a short passage from the manual:
In the vast majority of circumstances, the additional protection against unintentional discharge offered by an empty chamber is much more important than the few seconds it will take to chamber a round.
Bill
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I carry mine 6 + 1, like you do.
Doesn't make much sense to me to have a BUG or last-ditch weapon that takes fiddling with to make ready to fire.
Sheriff Jim Wilson wrote about a Texas ranger who carried his 1911 cocked & locked with the grip safety tied down - and tucked into his waistband. A young firearms instructor asked him if that wasn't dangerous. His reply, "D**n right it is, sonny. Otherwise I wouldn't carry it."
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I carry 6+1 also.
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I might as well throw toothpicks at the BG if I didn't have one in the chamber ready to go! I KNOW I'd be too nervous to rack the slide! Besides, the time factor would be against you in an actual encounter! Eric
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6+1 for me.
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The gun manufactures usually say keep the chamber empty for legal reasons. Helps when someone whats to sue because of a shooting mistake that was the owners problem by having chamber loaded. One example would be to leave the gun laying around or showing it to someone and they pull the trigger.
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I agree, looks like lawyer stuff. I carry 6+1. However, when you do this, make sure you have a quality holster that completely covers the trigger, yet still allows you to get a good grip when you draw.
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Most here seem to agree that a semiauto pistol with an empty chamber is a CCW liability.
It's what I like to refer to as the "gun as talisman" form of self-deception, that is, "I have this item, so I 'feel' protected".
Anybody who carries a weapon or other "item" such as a blade, needs to seriously consider the issue of worst-case deployment.
Awareness and avoidance will go a long way toward keeping us out of trouble, but if we ever unavoidably "get down in it", it'll likely be sudden and unavoidable.
Consider being assaulted in an elevator or other situation where you can't escape and can't move much; are you going to rack that slide, or thumb that pocket folder blade stud (or blade hole) or flip that Balisong?
No.
You'll likely be fumble-fingered at best, and you will very likely first need some sort of "empty hand skills" to just get sufficient freedom to even reach your "primary self-defense item", so it better be accessible and require nothing by way of intermediate steps to make it useable!
Preaching to the choir, I know.
Best.
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6+1=Peace of Mind... ;) 8)
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I question whether recommending carrying with the chamber empty in the owner's manual would help the manufacturer reduce liability in the event of an accidental discharge.
Guns are designed for people having a certain level of training, and a self-defense weapon has to be readily available for immediate use. No knowledgeable person would ever carry with the chamber empty, and all modern self-defense handguns are designed to be same in this mode of carry.
So, recommending an empty chamber in the owner's manual is writing an owner's manual containing advice that will automatically be disregarded.
I would suggest writing the owner's manual to provide safe guidelines for the proper mode of carry.
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I always carry mine with a round up the spout. Otherwise, to my way of thinking, I might as well have a rock in my pocket.
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Having thought about it more, I bet they meant loading a round just before target shooting.
I have read only a few owner's guides which said they recognized special circumstances that require chamber loading, in which case they recommended special training and caution.
It would be unthinkable to return to empty chambers after getting accustomed to the immediate readiness.
The holster adds a great feeling of security, even at night in the night stand.
Bill
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6+1 is the only way to carry
Tom
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Include me among those who carry with the chamber loaded. If I felt it was unsafe, I wouldn't be carrying the R9S. No different than carrying a DA revolver, IMHO.
That having been said, proper training, practice, and a safe holster are absolutely required.
Albert.
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Unless you're carrying a Colt SAA, any revolver is going to be fully loaded when carried. Then it just takes a pull of the trigger--no safeties, switches, levers. Fully loaded (6+1), the R9s is just like a modern DA revolver. I don't see a problem here. If a round is already chambered, you cannot have a failure to feed on the first round. It is said that Jeff Cooper pointed to his head with his forefinger when explaining where the safety was on his gun, but didn't say if he was referring to his brain or his trigger finger. Either way, your gun can't go bang if your finger is off the trigger.
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I don't understand, is there someone out there that is not carrying with the chamber loaded?
Tom
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Hi Tom,
I occasionally come across someone who has an empty chamber.
The typical reason is: More time is available to consider the situation. There is less chance of making a terrible judgement error, if there is a built-in deployment delay.
They believe the weapon can be made ready very quickly.
I believe the chamber must be loaded in order to be safe.
Bill
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You see this debate over at glock talk quite a bit. Lots of people new to CCW carry with chamber empty for a while and then switch to one in the chamber once they feel "comfortable". There are those, though, that think the added safety of having to rack the slide is worth it.
As for me, that seems likely to get me killed and so, negates any possible safety enhancements to carrying with an empty chamber. I want to know all I have to do is deploy, point, and pull for my self defense piece to go bang.
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This is one reason I don't recomend people carry a Glock. I think that trigger is just too short and light. A good holster can help mitigate that problem, but when the pistol is pointed at someone, you really want to make sure you need a good pull.
Plus, having a short, light trigger increases the chances of an accidental discharge when holstering, unholstering and so on. I could see people who carry a Block keeping the chamber clear.
If a pistol is not safe enough to keep a round inthe chamber, then get a new pistol.
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"...but when the pistol is pointed at someone, you really want to make sure you need a good pull..."
I think I understand your thought, but look at it another way.
The PURPOSE of the trigger is to actuate the firing mechanism with the LEAST possible chance of disturbing the proper alignment of the gun in relationship to the target.
It should NOT be unduly difficult to pull, otherwise the alignment will be more likely to be lost, and any shot made to be accordingly inaccurate.
The solution to the issue you're addressing is obedience to Rule Three, not a heavy trigger. A heavy trigger is often detrimental to good shooting.
Jeff Cooper has recommended about a 3# pull or even less, for 1911 triggers, in his writings. As the father of the "Modern Technique of the Pistol", he understands the issues involved very well. You don't face the target with your finger on the trigger, but when you DO make the decision to shoot, you should be able to do so with as much accuracy and precision as possible.
Best.
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The PURPOSE of the trigger is to actuate the firing mechanism with the LEAST possible chance of disturbing the proper alignment of the gun in relationship to the target.
It should NOT be unduly difficult to pull, otherwise the alignment will be more likely to be lost, and any shot made to be accordingly inaccurate.
A fair point, but there are a few important other considerations.
First, a lot of recent research with police officers has shown that when they have their pistol pointed at someone, their trigger finger tends to work it's way into the trigger guard without the officer intending to do so or even knowing that it did. There seems to be some subconscious drive to get the finger on the trigger, or at least "check" the trigger.
Second, officers don't train much with their guns. Here in RI, officers shoot their pistols annually. Many of them barely qualify after a day of trying. Given that budgets are shrinking and officers face an increasing number of tasks, we can see why firearms training gets put to the back burner. If they ever need to actually draw the pistol, they are going to be a bit excited. It's easy to tell them to keep their finger off the trigger until you need to shoot, but that does not mean it's going to work out that way. I realize bigger departments probably train more, but many departments in small town USA just don't.
Third, shootings with pistols are usually at close range and rarely is someone trying to make a super accurate hit. In the movies, we often see actors shooting someone in the head because they have a hostage held close. This does not really happen.
All that said, I am not advocating a 13lb trigger like the Glock NYPD trigger. That's nuts. There is a lot to be said for a DA/SA trigger, where the first pull is about 9lb and the next pulls are ~4lb. The Sig DAK system, where the trigger is a consistent ~7lb is a fine system as well. These pulls are a reasonable weight and length, not ~5.5lb and very short like a Glock.
Also, don't forget the potential for AD. I don't have any stats on this, but it just seems that when I hear about an AD it was with a Glock. Maybe because a Glock is so popular. And then, there is the young officer in Tennessee (I think) who came home from work, placed his gun belt on the kitchen table, turned to kiss his wife, and was shot to death by his toddler son who had no trouble pulling the trigger. Bad gun handling to be sure, but familiarity breeds complacency more often than contempt.
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On a 1911, I like a crisp 31/2# trigger. Breaks like a glass rod.
Tom
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I had a hard time getting confortable with the 5# pull on my Glock 36. And, of course, the trigger didn't have to move very far.
I achieved peace of mind by getting the New York trigger, NY-1, which increased the pull to 8#.
That was easier to accept.
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To each his own.
Cops are unfortunately not often good examples of shooting skill and exemplary technique, and most cops aren't particularly interested in guns.
No despite to cops, among whom I have a number of friends, and of course some officers are the cream of the crop when it comes to firearms use.
Those of us who are serious about training for the purpose of self protection and home defense may be expected to conform to a higher standard of performance than the average police officer, however.
I prefer a single action, or at least an "always-the-same action" trigger on my handguns, and can get along fine with 1911s, BHPs, HK P7s, Glocks, Kahrs, Rohrbaughs and any other pistol which has a uniform trigger pull.
Of these, the tuned 1911 single action trigger is the best IMNSHO, and is perfectly safe with obedience to Rule Three.
OTOH, no trigger, no matter how weighty the pull, will prevent an errant discharge if one is determined to place his finger on it inappropriately.
I cannot stand DA/SA guns, and though I used to own quite a few of these made by Sig-Sauer, HK and others, I divested myself of all such many years ago and won't own another. Why make accurate shooting more difficult than it needs to be?
Every mechanical aspect of accurate shooting should be made EASY, not HARD!
Best.
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Wow, that is horrible about the police officer, but at the same time, his toddler should never have had the opportunity to touch that gun. It could just as easily have been the mother or the toddler.
This past weekend I showed a retired Army Lt Col my Glock and he kept asking about the safeties. He was in disbelief that there was not a safety to stop you from pulling the trigger. I thought it was humorous because I have been shooting since I was about 7 years old and I have never accidentally pulled the trigger. In addition, I am very deliberate on where I point that thing, so even if it was loaded and just happened to go off, nobody gets hurt. Of all the guns I have used growing up, the majority had no external safeties.
My main fear of safeties is that if I was to start carrying a pistol with an external safety and I found myself in a tight situation, I might forget to disengage it, leaving me in a worse situation.
My personal rule: If I let anyone hold my pistol, it will be unloaded, unless we are at the shooting range. Too many accidents occur when somebody is handed a loaded gun.
On one last note, I am not trying to say safeties are bad, they just aren't for me (having grown up without them). I have known people who NEED a safety for their own well being...and that of others.
Those are just my thoughts.
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And then, there is the young officer in Tennessee (I think) who came home from work, placed his gun belt on the kitchen table, turned to kiss his wife, and was shot to death by his toddler son who had no trouble pulling the trigger. Bad gun handling to be sure, but familiarity breeds complacency more often than contempt.
Yes, that tragedy did occur here in Tennessee in January 2002. The officer was 22 years old and had just completed his police training. The child was only 3 years of age, and the young wife was pregnant at the time. It was an absolute horror which caused a lot of people around here to get back to the basic rules of gun handling.
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A police officer/fireman left his Glock on the kitchen counter and his 12 year old daughter moved it over and it went off and shot her in the forehead. Very sad. I remembered when she was born.
The Glock should never be left loaded, or any pistol for that matter.
Tom
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"The Glock should never be left loaded, or any pistol for that matter."
I trust that you mean "loaded and where children or other irresponsible people have access to it".
The common but potentially dangerous practice of routinely loading and unloading ones' sidearm at the beginning and end of the shift or day is a frequent occasion of accidental-negligent discharges, and is often neither necessary nor useful.
If there are small children in the home, put the pistol in a quick-access safe. If not, why perform the unload-load routine at all, unless you intend, for instance, to practice dry-fire?
Instead, it makes better sense in terms of both mechanics and safety to treat ALL firearms with appropriate respect (Rules One and Two), and not to go through a series of habitual movements that may provide a false sense of security.
The erroneous assumption of the "unloaded gun", based on the casual dichotomy of "loaded" vs. "unloaded", has led to more tragedies with firearms than any type of mechanical malfunction.
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Unintended (or negligent) discharges do happen. I think everyone who handles guns enough will eventually do it. That's why Jeff Cooper Rules #1 & #2 are so important: All guns are always loaded; Never let the muzzle cross anything you are not willing to destroy.
I've had a negligent discharge with a Glock. My own dumb fault. But I sold it anyway. Never did like the feel of the trigger. That little safety nib hurt my finger if I fired more than a couple of magazines.
Right after I did my dumb discharge, one of my friends at work told me that his wife had been the personnel director of a large midwestern city. She said the police department sent her, on average, one N.D. case per month to process. Many of those cases were officers shooting themselves in the leg when reholstering their Glocks.
I'm not condemning Glocks or any handguns, per se, but it doesn't take much distraction or brain-fade to have an accident. And the difference between an accident and a tragedy is tiny.
When it comes to guns, the answer to Dirty Harry's, "Do you feel lucky, punk?", is "NO!"
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Steve,
I finally traded my Glock for a Bushmaster AR-15.
The Glock is an extraordinary pistol deserving of its remarkable success.
Still, I could never relax because of the light trigger and short pull. A round in the chamber was downright uncomfortable for me.
I installed the NY-1 trigger. That seemed to destroy some of the goodness of the pistol. Like SAWBONES said, the hard pull seemed to defeat the alignment.
Now I'm stuck with .45 Auto rounds. What to do?
When I get rich, maybe the USP Compact 45 would help.
However, the MSRP is $874. Who wants to spend that much money for a pistol?
It should definitely always be chamber loaded.
Bill
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A loaded gun left around children should never happen. Having said that, my kids were trained never to touch a gun of any kind unless I was there to show them the gun. They are now grown and have children of their own. We never had a problem. But when their friends came over to the house the guns were put in the safe.
Tom
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"Now I'm stuck with .45 Auto rounds..."
Michigunner, I'll take those off your hands for free!
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SAWBONES,
Thanks for your kind offer. They are marked Ranger LEO only. I wouldn't want a good forum friend to get in trouble.
There is still hope for getting another .45 here.
Bill
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No worries about that Ranger T "LEO Only" labeling, Michigunner; it "don' mean a thang" legally, except that it makes me all the more concerned that it might harm you, so it'd be safest if you box it up and send it to me right away. ;)
Seriously though, I think the Winchester Ranger T loads are optimum choices for CCW/self defense in all the available calibers.
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SAWBONES:
Something tells me that you might be a poker player. ;)
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However, the MSRP is $874. Who wants to spend that much money for a pistol?
Bill,
You didn't let it stop you with the pup!! ;) ;D 8)
I carry a Glock 26 a lot and I feel perfectly safe with it and believe the rule of no fingers on the trigger unless your shooting..
My children have been taught since "babyhood" to respect and to treat firearms with the caution and care that they need!!
I always look out for the "others" though..Relatives and friends of the kids-they are when things can go froggy!!
Brenden
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Brenden, its called training your children. Those other kids... who knows.
The Eddie Eagle the NRA has is a good deal.
Tom