The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: Bugsy on September 24, 2005, 03:48:47 PM
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I had Rohrbaugh check my R9S for frequent failures to feed with JHP ammo. They say its fine and I now assume the trouble lies with me. If I get a really tight grip, I have few failures (which would support the theory) but I still have some. No problems with FMJs. So I have a question. Will limp wristing or just a poor grip cause a failure to feed such that the round jams up against the feed ramp or, occasionally, up against the top of the chamber? Can other owners duplicate this intentionally with guns they know to be working well?
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This experience mirrors mine exactly and I have the same question.
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This does seem to be about the most common reported failure regarding feed issues.
It is rare I find this happens and actually I can't remember back far enough to recall whether I tried limp wristing.
In theory tho - if energy that should go to slide is ''soaked up'' by the hand/arm - then possibly the slide does not travel back to max - then the velocity on fwd travel might be diminished, enough that tho the round is stipped off mag, it is not propelled quite fast enough , or with enough force to ''make it'' to chamber and so into battery.
I again wonder what a slow hand feed will do on the ''problem'' guns - watching as round emerges from mag, to see how much it kicks up during its forward motion. Watching mine in ''slow-mo'', the round proceeds fwd and starts to chamber, then it comes up out of mag briskly, all aligned and so ready to go nicely into battery.
Of course things are different under ''power-cycling''.
Thus far this problem is something of an enigma to me and one I'd dearly like to fully explain.
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To answer your question (and jarchers) yes.
I had (have) the same problem with another brand ( :o) of pistol.
It is a sub compact .45 ACP HI-cap semi auto that even after a complete reliability job, and changing every spring to Wolf springs, and changing the mag springs as well as adjusting the mag lips, I can make the gun fail at will.
This is a high dollar gun that is accurate as all get-up,and all the work was done buy reputable gunsmiths.
I still have the gun, but I would never carry it because I wouldn't trust it in a a " OH MY GOSH" situation.
Seems that my "issues" are with my grip.
I was always a target shooter and don't always "lock" my wrist.
Hope you find a solution to your problem.
Good luck.
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X-Ray - welcome to the forum:)
I forgot to say in my last post - I do consider that the R9 is best held with a ''sub white-knuckle'' grip - the hand web should be very tight into the gun abd grip two handed very tight and locked, with however not enough strength to cause ''the shakes''!
I have fired the pup strong hand only successfully but - I have many years of compo' experience where I used even very small semi's (Baby Browning) in competition.
For an ex bullseye shooter, this type of grip may be harder to aquire but I think it can be done with practice quite easily.
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If the Rohrbaugh people say your gun works fine for them, it may be something subtle in your technique. Hope the list below will help you get to the bottom of your problems. Good luck.
1.Are you having feed problems with all of your magazines? In a semi-auto pistol of good basic design, failures to feed are 'usually' related to the magazine system.
I scratch numbers in the bottom plate of my mags so I can tell if a particular one is giving me grief.
2. Are your feeding problems happening at random?
3. Or on the second round (first round after racking the slide)?
4. When loading a fresh magazine, do you make sure all the rounds are pushed all the way back?
5. Do you slap the mag smartly into the mag well?
6. Or do you just slide the mag into place?
7. Do you pull the slide all the way back and let it snap into battery?
8. Or do you ease the slide forward gently?
I have tried to cause mis-feeds with my R9S by purposely limp-wristing while shooting one-handed, and haven't had any problems.
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My gun was failing to feed just by simply racking the slide. Since it worked perfect for FMJ but not for JHP, I ruled out user errors . The problem was discussed and the solution was posted here:
http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/YaBB.cgi?board=R9S;action=display;num=1122326096;start=19#19
Cheers!
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See Erichs post on the cause and solution to his jams from 9/24/05
http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/YaBB.cgi?board=R9S;action=display;num=1127354827;start=15
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Thanks everyone! This is all very helpful and gives me some things to try, hopefully even today. Could be my technique or my throat (that sounds bad doesn't it) and I'll try working on both.
But I would still like to know if my problem can be duplicated with other Rohrbaughs at will. Could someone with a gun that seems to function flawlessly purposely duplicate the type of FTF described by me and others before by using a loose grip or limp wrist? (at the range I mean; you don't have to walk around like that all day). I'd really like to know.
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Bugsy,
Have you had someone else shoot it that is familiar with shooting?Just to see if maybe something very small in "technique" is different?
A start at least before other measures..
I wish you the best in finding any problem!!
Brenden
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Okay. More updates. With Milspec on the throat the top round of a full magazine feeds more easily but that's about all. With a really tight grip, using 115gr Winchester Silvertips, which I happened to have today, I had about a 10% FTF rate with my usual problem, rounds jamming up against the ramp or at the top of the chamber.
To answer Sslater and Brendon's questions. I think I'm doing everything right. I am a fairly experienced pistol shooter and I have had practice with other small guns (P32, P3AT &PM9).
Two other shooters, both experienced but not particularly used to small guns, had far more FTFs than me, even with FMJ target ammo. One very good pistol shooter had no problem with two full magazines, twelve rounds, which may be significant but maybe not; I've made it though two mags at times. I'm not feeling optimistic about this right now. I can't believe my grip is that much worse than others'. Even if it were, how about shooting offhand? Weak hand? I'm getting very frustrated.
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With your tight grip, we know that FMJ works and JHP fails. The only variable changed is the bullet type that causes this failure.
Then by hand polishing the throat area, there is an slight improvement. But an improvement, indeed.
But this time you switched to another JHP bullet type (?), the 115gr Winchester Silvertips - So there were two variables changed? Nevertheless, it is the JHPs that caused havoc.
I think you are heading in the right direction. That throat area still need some more tender loving care. I would try using a dremel with a soft felt mob (buffing wheel) and a good polishing paste to polish that throat. Some users here already suggested 'flitz' or 'Simichrome'. I used Militec-1 with the dremel, for that was all I had, and result was excellent. Smooth as butta. It solved my FTF problem.
Cheers!
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cuteo100 mentioned Militec-1. On all my new pistols, I coat the internals with Militec-1 and heat everything with the wife's hair dryer. Of course, the feed ramp is definitely included.
It really feels smooth afterward. Perhaps that alone would be beneficial. Who knows. I'm absolutely convinced that it makes metal smoother and slippery.
I bought a bottle, but they will gladly send a sample for free. It is routinely done, all the time.
Militec-1 may be hotly debated, but I thought it wouldn't hurt to use it initially.
In all cases, I apply regular gun lubrication, especially stuff like Super Lube and Mobil 1 0-30W. ;)
Bill
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Bugsy - I am sharing your frustration - but no answers right now - other than reflecting some of the other's thinking.
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Maybe check your lube procedure/cleaning intervals -- the pup does get dirty very quickly.
Brad
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Here's another thought for you ...since you spent time as a bullseye shooter. For defensive work, it is sometimes better to "push" the pistol away from you with your strong hand while at the same time "pulling" backwards with the weak hand. All the while staying on target as you have done for so long ... and, then, squeeze. That will help prevent the more "relaxed" posture for bullseye and lends itself to a more focused defensive posture. $.02
mefly2
8)
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Actually, that sort of a Weaver grip was just what was causing my R9s to malfunction. Its skinny gripframe requires a side-to-side pressure Isoceles grip . . . go figure.
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It's still the old cherry tho Erich - ''what works'' for the individual.
I am much more Weaver - always have been - but the actual grip itself is what I think is obviously critical.
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You know, I was a solid "Weaver beaver" until a few years back when I began talking to Andy Stanford, Gabe Suarez and Ernest Langdon about it. Now I spend training time on Weaver, Iso, and single hand - both strong and weak hand. I figure you never know what you'll be up against in a tense situation, so it's good to be trained to adapt.
I "naturally" still fall into Weaver, though. :)
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I experimented with all those stances too. Isosceles, Weaver, Modified Weaver, Chapman. Got myself pretty confused.
Then I read an article by a guy named Larry Pomykalski.
Below is a quote from Mr. Pomykalski's article:
"Now, I’d seen good shooters before. I’d even studied Matt’s instructional DVDs, “Practical Shooting-Handgun Techniques, Volumes 1-3” for a month or so before coming out to train with him. But nothing I’d ever seen had prepared me for the sight of this multiple world champion lighting the afterburners and setting into a plate rack. “Fast” can’t describe it accurately; in fact, there’s no way to convey in print the speed with which Burkett shoots. Even video falls short. Suffice to say he shoots faster than I would have thought humanly possible, until I saw it myself.After reholstering, Matt turned and continued. “The forward weight bias helps with recoil management. I’ve never understood why some people shoot with their weak hand pulling in, since the gun’s coming in anyway when it recoils. When I shoot, my arms are relaxed, unlocked, and ready to absorb the gun’s recoil at the elbows.” This was, as were all Burkett’s explanations, accompanied by a clear physical demonstration. I practiced the stance and grip I’d been shown a few times, and then fired at the plate rack again, this time in my best approximation of Matt’s posture. After the plate rack was cleared, I turned to Matt. “How long have we been shooting?” Puzzled a little, he replied, “About ten minutes-two magazines.” That’s exactly how long it took for me to realize that I was about to make some quantum improvements in my shooting over this three-day period."
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I tried the Burkett technique and found I shoot much better his way. The first improvement I found was not pushing my shots to 7:30 on the target. I wasn't flinching, I was anticipating recoil. Matt Burkett's website put me onto Brian Enos' Slide Glide lube, too. That was a good day.
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Steve,
His website has some nice Practical Shooting Tips.
Thanks for the information.
He also said:
Add skate board tape, checkering or rubber grips so that you can get a better grip.
I'm going to try that.
Bill
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I came out of the Army as a confirmed "Weaver disciple." I have now gravitated to the isosceles stance by preference. However, as Erich recommends, I practice with both of the above plus freehand stance. As for weak-hand shooting, I'm so right-hand dominant that I won't even show my left-hand targets to my wife. :-[
The Pomykalski method interests me. It sounds a lot like the natural flow of movement typical of the best wing shooters.