The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: GeorgeH on September 05, 2005, 03:22:59 PM
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I guess there is a lot of excitement over the two new models that Karl and clan plan to introduce at the next SHOT show.
Like the rest of you, I can't wait.
But, what I would like to see is a Seecamp clone, without a mag safety, and built on a forged alloy frame. I have expressed this opinion on the NAA website as well.
I own a slew of pocket guns, including three Seecamps, two NAA Guardians, and a R9s. NAA is working on a lighter Guardian. Seecamp, well is Seecamp, their 380 is a jewel of a pistol. But I want more competition: I want to push the envelope.
I have faith in my Seecamps, Guardians, and Rohrbaugh. I have little faith in my KelTec 380. Look what happenned to the old 1911A1: the clone wars have generated pistols that are far superior to what was available just 10 years ago, and light years better than what was on the market in 1980.
What Rohrbaugh needs is a reasonably priced, high margin product to keep all of its high tech machines working 24/7. I can see two products in my mind: Two Seecamp 380 clones. One with a machined forged steel frame (that would weigh 2 ozs more than the original) and a 380 clone with a machined forged alloy frame (that would weigh maybe 2 ozs lighter than the Seecamp). Wholesale the first out at $425 with a retail price of $550, and the second with a wholesale price of $600 with a retail price of $800.
So what do you guys, and gals, think?
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And not be so ammo picky as the Seecamp either!
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I am reserving judgement right now - ;) ;)
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I kinda hope one of the two new models is a .45 GAP. That would be as powerful as I would want to handle in a small lightweight package. The GAP round is short enough that an upgraded material recoil spring would fit into the current platform. From my engine engineering days, I can tell you that spring can be upgraded. Just look at what the hot rodders are using these days compared to only a decade ago. Expensive, but you need only one or two springs per gun. The gun would probably be at least 0.10 thicker and 5 + 1 capacity.
BTW: I had been carrying a .380 NAA Guardian for about two years before taking delivery of my R9S. The R9S carries much easier for me than the 4 ounce weight difference would indicate. The NAA frame is made Kahr Arms for NAA. Not sure who does the machining, Kahr or NAA, but it's a nice bit of work. If the Rohrbaughs don't release something by the time I get over my "This R9S is the last gun I'll ever have to buy" feeling, I may look into a gun from the Kahr line. ;)
Steve S.
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George:
It's good to see you posting here again. Where have you been?
I have no inside information, but my bets for the new Rohrbaughs are on .380 ACP and .45 GAP.
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Hi Richard:
I've been around. A couple of years ago, I decided to change my practice focus from commerical litigation and appellate to probate (post-death administration, guardianships, conservatorships, mental health). I wanted to stop having to fly all over creation, running to various courts, etc. What I wanted was to have a practice that keeps me in one place--near home.
I gave myself 5 years to build something up. But, business is booming well beyond my wildest expectations. Work is literally falling into my lap at a rate that blows my mind. My firm's bankruptcy department blew-up in a nasty internal war. For the first time in my firm's history they actually let an associate go. I flipped-out. I have already fill the plate of one lawyer and a half, and I could have taken that associate and retrained him to be profitable. I just didn't move fast enough.
But I'm around, I just have very little time to stop and smell the roses.
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George - yes, from me too good to see you back. Just realized how long since seeing you.
[size=13] I just have very little time to stop and smell the roses.[/size]
Forget the darned roses George - better yet would be the subtle odor of combusting double base propellant, as you launch lil' lead thingies, in a sorta downrange direction! ;D
Breath deep and appreciate - good way to unwind. :P
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Hi SSlater:
Both Seecamp and NAA use the came investment casting house. Seecamp machines their guns themselves, NAA uses Kahr. NAA assembles only.
Rohrbaugh follows in the Seecamp model--build as much as possible in-house.
I think NAA finally figured out that it is easier to sell a light gun. They are working on a 32 revolver and a lighter Guardian.
Seecamp Sr. saw the need for a high quality pocket gun and built it. Seecamp Jr is following in dad's footsteps. I think the market for quality pocket guns has hardly been touched. I want to stoke the flames of competition. Force innovation.
What makes this board, like the NAA board so troll free is that pocket guns are a niche market. People who are attracted to this board tend to be experienced shooters that understand the utility of small powerful concealable firearms.
So I want the clone wars to begin.
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George, the .380's sound good but I am not sure they can be built for that kind of money. Having said that, if it can be done the R bros would do it. My hope is a .45. Tom
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After looking at my Colt Defender I just can't imagine how they could do a smaller 45. :P
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Newt, I also have a Colt Defender, light weight. Had it tricked out with night sights. It carrys great.
Tom
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Tom, It is a great 45, did you change your grips?
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Newt, Yes, it now has carbon fiber black grips. Tom
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I'm hoping for a Rohrbaugh .380 Auto.
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If the brothers would make an aluminum-framed .380 that was the size of a Seecamp, I'd order one instantly. If they came out with a full-sized alloy-framed .40 or .45, I'd start saving my pocket change and absolutely buy one when I had saved enough (it would probably take about two years).
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I guess we'll have to wait until after 12-Feb-06, when the SHOT show in Las Vegas ends. :(
My wife's uncle manufactures some gun industry components and usually attends the SHOT show. He says it's tough duty but somebody has to go. If he invited me, I'm not sure I could survive four days in Vegas... ;D
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I really think the key to long term survival for the Rohrbaugh brothers is to come up with a couple of high volume, high gross margin products. I really think they can produce a Seecamp clone for less than what Seecamp sells their product for at a level of quality that is as good or better than the original. I agree that an exotic alloy clone cannot be manufactured with a price point less than Seecamp, but a machined forged steel frame version could.
Right now, the 380 Seecamp, pushes the envelope of what an investment cast, steel frame, pistol of that footprint can handle. A machined frame from a forged billet, will weigh maybe 2 ozs more, but could last almost forever. Rohrbaugh will save money by machining, since it will use its own in-house equipment and not have to subcontract the investment cast.
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GeorgeH it sounds good to me, lets see if the Rohrbaugh bros agree. Tom
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My guess is they will be .32 Auto and .380 Auto.
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I really think the key to long term survival for the Rohrbaugh brothers is to come up with a couple of high volume, high gross margin products. I really think they can produce a Seecamp clone for less than what Seecamp sells their product for at a level of quality that is as good or better than the original. I agree that an exotic alloy clone cannot be manufactured with a price point less than Seecamp, but a machined forged steel frame version could.
Right now, the 380 Seecamp, pushes the envelope of what an investment cast, steel frame, pistol of that footprint can handle. A machined frame from a forged billet, will weigh maybe 2 ozs more, but could last almost forever. Rohrbaugh will save money by machining, since it will use its own in-house equipment and not have to subcontract the investment cast.
I think you're right. I've been pushing for an all steel version from the beginning. At first Eric said it would happen and later said it would not, so let's see.
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I wouldn't mind an all-steel model and would actually prefer it. Do you think that it could handle +P ammo?
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I wouldn't mind an all-steel model and would actually prefer it. Do you think that it could handle +P ammo?
The Kahr MK9 thrives on +P so, even though the Kahr is somewhat larger, I think an all steel R9 would be able to handle +P.
As has been discussed here in the past, the current alluminum framed R9 can probably handle +P, but it would most likely crack the frame eventually.
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Don't get me wrong, I really like the Kahrs -- it's their lack of a repeat striker capability that I have issue with.
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The Kahr lineup are all great firearms, but they are not pocket guns. NAA, Seecamp, and Rohrbaugh are. The pocketgun market is a niche market with plenty of business for everyone. Seecamp refined an old CZ design. NAA had their own vision, now I want to see what Karl can see.
I know that Seecamp has a 9mm prototype in the safe. I think Larry is a genius. I would love to see that prototype. I know that NAA is working on a 32 revolver and a lighter Guardian. Again, I want to see these products come to market.
I want to see Seecamp, Rohrbaugh, and NAA bury Kel Tec. Let Kel Tec make more carbines, but their pistols are no match for NAA, Seecamp, and the Rohrbaugh brothers.
I love competition. Everyone wins.
Let the clone war begin....
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GeorgeH, Seecamp was late with their .380 and NAA took some of the wind out of Larry's sail.
The R bros have already done the 9mm.
Tom
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Well ,I think there is a Big slot to be filled. The NAA 380 is too heavy and the Seecamp 380 is too light, in my humble opinion. If there was a Rohrbaugh 380, with the locked breach design, it would be the King ! But the size would need to be just a little smaller than the R9..
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RJ, you got it! Tom
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I too agree with RJ, the Seecamp .380 is just too small, and the NAA .380 at about 20 ozs loaded is just too heavy. But the R380 would need to be smaller than the R9 for me to really look at buying it.
GeorgeH-I didnt' consider Kel-Tec for a long time, then I tried the 1G P-3AT and it gave me all sorts of trouble. So I stuck with my .38 for a while, then decided to give KT a try again. My P-32 has been 100%, and its unmatched in size/weight, and I even bought a P-11 that has been 100% as well. Maybe I just had good luck, but I love my KT's.
I still would like to see what Rohrbaugh has in the works, and I really hope its a scaled down R9 chambered in .380 :)
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Competition breeds innovation. Right now all three manufacturers make excellent products. Maybe the 380 Guardian is too heavy, but the weight offsets recoil. Maybe the Seecamp is too light, but you can wear it virtually anywhere without a problem. That is why I'm on the soapbox for clone wars. Each manufacturer will try to make an improvement to the design, or in the materials, or bring it to market at a lower price. Each manufacturer will try and out do the other. As far as I can tell, it would be a win-win situation for everyone.
I love my Seecamps, Guardians, and Rohrbaugh. I have a great deal of faith in the Rohrbaugh brothers, just as I think of Larry Seecamp as a genius.
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George,
I wish they would just make a conversion kit for the R9S, where we could select either a .380 Auto barrel, or maybe even a .22LR.
The .380 would be a wonderful choice for those who are recoil sensitive. I would buy one for sure, if the price was reasonable.
I used to go to Algonac and Harsen's Island when I was younger. I believe they are off in your direction.
I'm bummed about the low water levels, even though it's great to have more beach.
We live south of Ann Arbor, and also north of Oscoda.
Bill
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George
You are right, compromise is a hard choice sometimes. And sometimes a compromise is not the best choice. For I would not call the 32 Guardian / 380 Guardian a good compromise, the size growing with the caliber step up. But with the Rohrbaugh, R9 / R380, a size down on weight, dimension, caliber, and recoil, that's my idea of a good compromise..
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Hi Mich...
I live in St Clair Shores, which is in Macomb County. The island is next door in St Clair County. So yea, I live closer.
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Hi RJ:
The beauty of the NAA Guardian series is their ability to be customized to the needs of each user.
As to compromises: I like the NAA G 32 better than the Seecamp 32, but I like the Seecamp 380 better than the G 380. For me size is more important than weight, but weight is important enough where I would take the Seecamp 380 over the G380. But, I would take the G 380 over Kel Tec any day.
Rohrbaugh's eye toward quality is unreal. If they could build a Seecamp 380 clone with a machined forged alloy frame, and ditch the mag safety, they would have a single platform that would have world wide appeal. It would also give Seecamp a run for its money and force Larry to bring his genius to work.
As to the current Rohrbaugh platform, an all steel version and a 22 LR version would be nice. Not everyone can afford a Rolls. The all steel version would allow individuals with a limited budget to enjoy the small platform, and allow people like me with a nice training gun. The 22 would provide a nice training platform.
As to the US market, a Rohrbaugh 380 would be a mistake. The platform is too large to be truely competitive. But it would be excellent for export.
I'm interested in NAA's effort to reduce the weight of its Guardian series. I also think that a 32 H&R mag mini revolver would sell like hot cakes.
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George,
I'm wondering why you think an all steel version of the R9 would be significantly cheaper to manufacture than the current version?
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[size=13] I also think that a 32 H&R mag mini revolver would sell like hot cakes.[/size]
I have the NAA mini in .22 WMR but would buy a .32 mag in a heartbeat if they did make one!
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George,
Whoops, I was way off in my geography! Sorry about that.
It was many years ago.
Bill
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Hi Harry:
Look at the marketplace. All steel guns appear to be 25-30% cheaper to produce than alloy based guns.
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Rohrbaugh seems to me to be in the business of making pistols for self defense, and not for "training". I can't see them making a pistol in .22 caliber, as I know a .22 can stop a threat, its certainly a really poor choice for it. I think it would be silly to make a .22, and if they did they would most likely lose money on the venture.
I think a .380 caliber pistol being the same size/weight of the R9 would do better in sales/usefullness, if it were designed to be smaller and lighter. But it would be a decent pistol even if they kept it the same size, the NAA .380 sells and that thing unloaded weighs 18 ozs.
Also all steel??? Again the R9 was designed from step 1 to be a compact, cocealable, powerful pistol, and I think Rourbaugh will continue with making this style of pistol. If you make it all steel, it makes the gun much more heavy and less concealable. The seecamp for being tiny in size is a good example because even though 11.5 ozs isn't very heavy in general, for its small size it is heavy.
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I'll be very disappointed if they don't make a .380 Auto kit for the R9.
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Hi Bob:
The elements of marksmanship are the same whether you shoot a 44 mag or a 22. A 22 training pistol allows someone to practice inexpensively within the same platform.
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Also all steel??? Again the R9 was designed from step 1 to be a compact, cocealable, powerful pistol, and I think Rourbaugh will continue with making this style of pistol. If you make it all steel, it makes the gun much more heavy and less concealable. The seecamp for being tiny in size is a good example because even though 11.5 ozs isn't very heavy in general, for its small size it is heavy.
An all steel gun would still be the same size and the added weight would help cushion the recoil making the gun more pleasant to shoot and maybe even be able to handle +P ammo which is more effective for self defensive purposes.
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Why mess with perfection? I think the Rohrbaugh brothers got things just right! The R9 filled a void in pocket pistols. Other suitable guns exist in .32, and .380 -- I don't see how it would be a good business decision for Rohrbaugh to introduce those offerings. If they want to produce a similar gun for European use, they can follow the path of other manufacturers by extending the case to 9x21. Identical ballistics, just a longer case to comply with the non-use of military chamberings in som European countries.
Like the recent rumors of HK re-introducing the P7 pistols in a polymer frame version...yuck. I'll keep an open mind and wait to see/hold one. But it would need to be something really special to replace my P7, P7M8, P7M13 or P7M10.
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Fly, you have got it nailed. They have the perfect gun in the R9. Tom
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George-Yeah I understand that a .22 would be nice for target shooting, and you use the same fundamentals whether you're shooting a .22 or 10MM. But again, they aren't going to make a .22 target pistol for you and the other 3 guys that want one.
Fudster-Yeah I know a heavier gun would soak up more recoil. If the Rohrbaughs had light recoil high up on the priority list, then they would have used all steel. They did not use all steel because lighter weight is important in concealed carry gun. Heck its pretty important to have lighter weight guns in general for a lot of manufacturers, look at the huge explosion in polymer frames in the last decade.
I see now that a lot of this post is wishful thinking, which is fine, but I thought most people were trying to focus on guns the Rohrbaugh might actually produce.
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Fudster-Yeah I know a heavier gun would soak up more recoil. If the Rohrbaughs had light recoil high up on the priority list, then they would have used all steel. They did not use all steel because lighter weight is important in concealed carry gun. Heck its pretty important to have lighter weight guns in general for a lot of manufacturers, look at the huge explosion in polymer frames in the last decade.
I own a 12oz Smith & Wesson alloy/ titanium 342 revolver and a 24oz all-steel Taurus revolver. Guess which one gets carried more.
I see now that a lot of this post is wishful thinking, which is fine, but I thought most people were trying to focus on guns the Rohrbaugh might actually produce.
Eric and I have discussed the possibility of an all-steel model and he pretty much told me the same thing that you mentioned above. But it WAS discussed and I'm hoping that it MIGHT become a reality.
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Hi Bob:
I take it from your post that practice is not as big a priority to you as it is to me. But, a 22 practice pistol identical to a person's carry gun would permit an individual to train more. I believe in training. A 22 is an excellent training tool.
From a business point of view, a manufacturer likes to spin off products based on an established platform. It allows products to go to market with less R&D costs. Granted all steel guns are heavy, but look at Kahr. Not only did they keep their all steel guns, they came up with an even lower cost version to expand their market penetration.
We have to understand, that a lot of people simply can't buy a $1,000 pocket pistol. It would make sense to offer those folks a product that they can afford.
I want to see clone wars. I want to see competition. But I want to see Rohrbaugh thrive. To thrive they need products in the marketplace, not just drawings or ideas on a table.
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I have to say I think the R9 is pretty much perfect the way it is. If I want a bigger gun, I'll go to my HK P2000 or a 1911.
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Slowhand,
Good choice of heavier artillery. I have a H&K USP 40 which is too big for me to conceal. Bought a Sig P239 which is concealable but still a bit uncomfortable to carry. (I know, Clint Smith says a carry gun doesn't have to be comfortable - just comforting.) My R9S is just about the ideal compromise of size, weight & power for me.
Last night I stopped by the local gunshop to replenish my supply of Speer GDHP ammo. I usually deal with the owner's son, but last night the owner himself was on the counter. We got to chatting. It turns out he is a retired police officer. He asked to see my R9S and then showed me how easy it is to conceal the pup in your hand. He palmed the gun & turned his back to me with his hands raised. I couldn't see any of the gun in his hand. He related how his department made suspects face the officer with their hands open to make sure they were unarmed. He said in his day they didn't have to worry about full-power guns in mouse gun size.
Then he promised someday to show me some .380 ACP handloads he made up with Blue Dot powder and a magic bullet that isn't made anymore. "That round is as destructive as a hollowpoint .357 Magnum." Sure..... ;)
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Slater- Thanks! You might like the P2000, it's more the size of a USP Compact. It's very concealable, even under light clothing. Mine is in 9mm, and I use it as my summer gun. I used to use a LW Commander in that role, but it was a tough gun to get good with. I found I was able to shoot the P2000 just about twice as fast as the LWC in any given situation. Plus, given most light summer clothing, I felt the 9mm was fine (124 gr +P Gold Dots). As soon as the weather cools off (under 80 F), I'll switch back to my Govt Model, which I usually stoke with 230gr Golden Sabers.
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The R9s was designed as a bug gun or hide out, deep cover carry gun. In that role it is perfect. Why change it.
Tom
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Right-on Tom!
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[size=13]The R9s was designed as a bug gun or hide out, deep cover carry gun. In that role it is perfect. Why change it.[/size]
Tom - I also agree - in as much as, if the pup does not cut it for a given application then something else will. :)
The R9, is the R9 - is the R9 ;D
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The R9s was designed as a bug gun or hide out, deep cover carry gun. In that role it is perfect. Why change it.
Tom
They're not changing it. They're adding two new models (according to our source), apparently in an effort to gain more customers. Not a bad idea for the survival of the company.
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I'll drink to that!!
Tom
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The older Speeer manuals have some superb loads for both 9mm and 380ACP utilizing Blue Dot powder. One bonus that I've found is that the powder is nearly always totally consumed and leaves very little fouling!
mefly2
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I would like to see a mini .22 auto along the lines of the FTl auto nine
It held 9 rds in a unique magizine design in a pistol smaller than a baby browning. Rohrbaugh can make it nice
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konrad - chipping in, for no other reason than to say Hi and welcome to you :)
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The R9s was designed as a bug gun or hide out, deep cover carry gun. In that role it is perfect. Why change it.
Tom
Because a "beef'ed" up model that can handle a steady diet of +P would be desirable. Even if they went up in size to that of a Pocket Nine / PPK, it would still be a good size for a BUG.
I would carry it most of the time and drop down to the R9 when I needed DEEPER concealment.
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Problem with a beefed up Rohrbaugh to handle +P's is that you can buy a Kahr that is 1/8th of an inch larger in most dimensions that will handle the +P for less money. WHat's the point?
HiCap
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I owned a Kahr MK9. Didn't like it for two reasons: (1) It lacked a repeat striker capability -- the R9 has it. (2) The R9 has an external hammer -- the MK9 is internally striker fired.