The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: Michigunner on August 19, 2005, 10:56:35 AM
-
I was surprised to see reports of Karl using Winchester Silvertips. Has anyone heard about his reasons for switching from Gold Dots?
Meanwhile, Seecamp seems to be changing their recommendation from Silvertips to Hydra-Shoks.
I've pretty much decided to fly solo, and experiment with all my premium 9mm rounds, and select one that is most reliable.
Naturally, I expect all to work just fine in this wonderful pistol.
Bill
-
Bill:
I've settled on 147-grain Remington Golden Sabers. I tend to subscribe to the "big-and-slow" theory when it comes to defensive rounds.
-
Richard,
Those Golder Sabers are very nice, indeed. I've never had a single failure using them in other pistols.
It's amazing how a few years ago you couldn't find a nice word about 147 gr. bullets. Now, they are highly favored.
Mine are Ranger LEO 147gr, and I'm going to try them in the R9S.
Meanwhile, changing the subject, I must have sustained an injury in my shooting head (correction: hand) some years ago, and the R9S really gives me a jolt!! It's a big deal.
We are going to have an X-ray next week. Sure don't want anything interfering with shooting the Rohrbaugh.
I just received a S&W shooting glove, and may try that just to run some rounds through the gun. A report will follow about the usefulness of a glove.
I know you should practice in a realistic manner. This is just a temporary situation.
Bill
-
I was the fellow who reported that Karl said he uses Silvertips.
What Karl told me is that he just finds the Silvertips to be reliable performers, with a decent MV (in the 1060s from the R9 he carries) and a solid record for expanding. Later, in another conversation, he told me that he preferred Winchester primers based on his extensive IPSC performance (you hear this a lot from the race-gun reloaders, the Winchester primers are held by many to require less force to detonate than CCI or Remington primers) - perhaps that had something to do with his choice, as well.
The only reason Karl mentioned the STHP was in response to my telling him that I was planning to carry 147-gr Gold Dots (I've changed my mind on that, btw, but not because I think GDs are a bad load, or anything . . . I carry them in my Hi-Power), and it was sort of just in the context of two gun guys discussing loads.
I appreciate the idea of tailoring your load to your carry pistol. Frankly, all modern hollowpoints seem to perform about the same, inasmuch as each shooting is profoundly different. As I mentioned on another thread, I've worked on over 100 handgun killing cases, and there's not much difference between the wounds left by (.38 spl and bigger) handgun calibers, let alone bullets. To some extent, all this idle bullet selection talk is counting angels dancing on the heads of pins - performance in the firearm is the primary concern, performance in the air to the target is the next (obviously, you want accuracy so that you can pinpoint those difficult-to-hit stop zones on a human target), and performance in meat is probably the least important. As long as it can hit the right part of the attacker and adequately penetrate to get to "the good stuff," expansion is not much more than gravy.
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I carry the 147-gr Gold Dots in my Hi-Power, and Winchester's 127-gr +P+ RA9ATs in my Glock 26. I carry Remington 158-gr +P LSWCHPs in my .38 snubs, backed up with Federal +P+ 147-gr Hydra-Shoks on my speedloaders and speed strips (the jacketed Hydra-Shoks won't deform in my pocket). I carry Double Tap 200-gr XTPs in my 1076. I carry Buffalo Bore 158-gr LHC .357s in my King Cobra and Federal 250-gr JSPs in my .41 Blackhawk. It's all good. :)
And in the Rohrbaugh? I'll carry the light version of the STHP in my R9s based on nothing but Karl's recommendation - because he of all people ought to know what works in the gun, and because he has a solid tactical and training background to support his thoughts on bullet performance. But I think that all of the choices mentioned thus far should work just fine in the gun.
-
Thanks for the great information, Erich.
I may pickup some STHP just to try it out. The name "silvertip" is enough to draw me to the cartridge. As a small boy in Arkansas listening to the Detroit radio in the static, I still remember the Lone Ranger and his silver bullets.
If it was good enough for him, it's good enough for me. :)
Bill
-
:)
They are nice bullets. It's funny, I used to keep Winchester 115-gr STHPs in my S&W 439 way back in the '80s. The more things change, . . . .
-
I may be wrong about this, but I think the Seecamp company does not reccomend the WW STHP in the .32 caliber, but I believe they will work in the .380 Seecamp.
Who posted above about a injury to their shooting head? ???
O.K., O.K. , I know what you meant....I think.
Anyway, good luck with that injury.
gee, all this talk makes me want to do some shooting with the R9 right now.
-
My recollection is that the Seecamp 32s (at least the original ones) would only work with STHPs. This may have changed in recent years.
-
Whoops! I didn't mean to say shooting head, although maybe there is some truth to that. :) Thanks for noticing it.
All this shooting talk also makes me want to get out and use the R9S.
Bill
-
If you have followed links thru my FAQ site - to my ammo tests - I did not find (personally) that Silvertips were all that good in wetpack - which of course ain't the be all and end all.!
I don't remembere Golden Sabers as being too impressive either. But I think they cycled OK.
I stick to the GD's because of their functional reliability in the gun and their near uncanny consistency in wetpack. They ''peel'' very nicely.
-
Concerning the .32 Silver Tip loads that were the "choice" for Seecamps for years,I believe the overall length has slightly changed with new production..
Guess this is causing malfunctions with the .32..
I have several old boxes to last awhile and I will be using GDs otherwise as the shoot swell out of the Seecamp for me.. 8)
Brenden
-
That is a true statement Brenden, but does that carry over to the .380 Seecamp? I think just the .32.
-
Go to the Seecamp website www.seecamp.com -- they have ammo info there. Larry Seecamp told me to hang onto the old 32 silvertips to use for carry.
-
"I carry Double Tap 200-gr XTPs in my 1076." - Erich
Another 10mm guy! 8) Those DT's are great aren't they?
-
Yep! Mike McNett will never be allowed to buy a drink when I'm in the room - I owe him for bringing out that fine line of ammo. :)
-
So, what is a good ammo for just going to the range and shooting for the R9?
I like the Gold Dots for carry, and I have Silvertips.
What is something that will function, and not real expensive?
-
Hi chameleon,
Originally the Rohrbaugh brothers recommended Gold Dots. Now I understand Silvertips are being carried.
However, I think just about any premium ammo is considered OK.
The big no-no is not use +P rounds.
I would even go down to Wal-Mart and buy WWB 9mm. I don't see why not.
There have been some very excellent reports here about trips to the range using various kinds of ammo.
Please look in the FAQ section that shows up at the top of the main page. There you will find the reports.
Bill
-
However, I think just about any premium ammo is considered OK.
The big no-no is not use +P rounds.
I would even go down to Wal-Mart and buy WWB 9mm. I don't see why not.
There have been some very excellent reports here about trips to the range using various kinds of ammo.
Bill
Bill[/quote
Thanks Bill, That's what I wanted to know, and know quickly, without having to search.
I am going to be buying some 9mm soon, and just wanted to know what to get.
I knew about the Silvertips, and GoldDots, as I do have those.
-
I have used "magsafe" in my 32 seecamp for over 8 years and I never had a problem with it, also I carry "magsafe" in my R9 and it works and cycles perfectly, (magsafe same as used in 26 Glock)....Gemini.Dan
-
For my first time out I used white box Winchester.
Worked beautifully with not even a hiccup. I think this gun will eat most anything if dutifly maintained. For protective carry I will follow factory suggestions.
-
Do you always follow others, or can you go on line and read the statistics about "magsafe"..it reduces recoil, lower flash,,,,great stopping power............Geminidan
-
Hi All…
I have to agree and disagree with Erich a bit. I agree that unless the ammo works reliably in your pistol it is not a good choice. That said, as an engineer, I feel that the best way to evaluate the effectiveness of a bullet is by testing a wide variety under tightly controlled laboratory conditions.
I respect that Erich has investigated actual shootings, but actual shootings happen in the field, where conditions are largely unknown. What kind of round was used and what kind of pistol was it shot from? How long was the barrel? Was the pistol in good or poor condition? What was the shot person wearing? It was probably different than what other shot persons were wearing. Was a barrier involved? How old was the ammo? This all barely scratches the surface. Because all these things vary greatly from shooting to shooting, it’s not possible to determines what rounds are more effective based upon examining this data.
Karl has also told me he carries silvertips. The silvertip tests as a less effective round than Speer GDHP, Winchester RA9T or Federal Tactical, which are the two best self defense rounds available (per laboratory testing). The newer rounds designed like these utilize bonded bullets and the highest quality cases and primers.
These are my choices, but my initial testing showed frequent failures to feed with all these rounds. I was particularly disappointed with the failures from the RA9T, since this non +P round tests as well as P+ competitors. At 147gr, this round creates much less felt recoil and lighter bullets.
I did send the pistol back along with samples of this ammo. They did some minor work on it, sent it back and it still failed for me. So maybe it is my fault. I can accept that. If I shoot the pistol carefully I don’t get the failures. In a stress fire situation, I won’t be checking my grip.
So, my pistol has silvertips in it right now. I have never had a silvertip fail. However, I do wish I could RA9T or GDHP or Federal Tactical.
Someone asked where a cheap source of practice ammo is. Well, if your pistol shots Speer GDHP reliably, you can practice with what you carry. Ammoman frequently has reclassified 9mm Speer GDHP for the same cost as good range ammo. Check out:
http://www.ammoman.com
Someone on this forum in nearby CT generously offered to let me come shoot his R9. I have not yet taken him up on that, but I plan to before cold sets in. I’ll let him shoot mine as well, so we can see if it is the pistol or my shooting.
Richard mentioned the “heavy and slow” theory. I firmly agree. I am in the heavy and slow camp, hence my like of 147gr bullets.
You guys have properly identified the Seecamp .32 issue. That pistol was actually designed around that round. Winchester recently changed the length of that round, spoiling the Seecamp .32. As someone said, this is well discussed on their website.
Finally, a comment about why the silvertips seem to work. I think it is because they are much pointier and thinner at the very tip then other rounds. Other rounds are shorter and flatter than the silvertip. I think this is the difference. IIRC, Karl told me this as well.
Jim
-
It may not mean much, but I've read a few accounts of Silver tips failing to perform/expand in actual shootings. I have tested 9mm silver tips in my R-9 and Kahr PM9. I tested some hollow point rounds by firing into wet telephone books. While not as scientific as ballistic gel, it gives a pretty good comparison of the rounds fired into the same book. At 12 feet the Silver Tips did not expand or penetrate as well as the Speer 115gr GDHPs. The Speers feed flawless in my R-9 so that's what I use.
Ed