The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: Chuck_S on November 02, 2005, 08:44:05 AM
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Honeymoon is over on R93x!
Fired most of a box of generic Federal 115gr FMJ 10 days ago, cleaned, lubed and back to the range last night to find a reliable JHP. Wouldn't feed the only standard velocity Golden Sabers the shop had (147gr) so, rather than waste all the time I decided to fire 115gr FMJ again.
Wouldn't feed that more than every other round either! I don't think the slide is cycling far enough as sometimes the chamber is empty, other times there's a live cartridge half way in. Extraction and ejection is fine.
Any quick fixes before this goes back to the factory? Cleaned, lubed (per the instructions!), solid grip, etc.
-- Chuck
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Does anyone else see a pattern developing?
I am trying my darnedest to remain objective and clinical about the R9, but "What we have here is......"
Chuck_S, I wonder why you didn't try those Gold Dots by Speer? It made no difference with my 9s, but I was wondering.
As for 'quick fix'.. I polished the feed ramp and used the lube as advised ... not that that helped, either.
Other, more experienced with the R9 should have something of interest to add. I know I'll be watching.
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I am so sorry for those forum members that are having problems with their R9s.
Having said that, we should consider that only a small amount of R9s are having problems.
Some of my customers are so excited about getting their pups that they rush out to shoot it and in their hurry cause some little problems.
When they slow down and pay attention to what they are doing and get use to shooting the gun,the problems go away.
Most of my customers have had no problems with their guns at all.
Shooting Gold Dot 115 or 124 gr helps.
Tom
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Tom, I respect your take on this; " we should consider that only a small amount of R9s are having problems.", but I have been doing some soul searching and memory work and in all my buying experiences- and I did run my own gun shop for several years- Very few handguns I've known can claim more feeding and reliability problems.
Yes, all my 1911s, Colts and others, needed ramp polishing and decent mags, but once the mods were accomplished, those guns ran faultlessly. None of my numerous Glocks or Sigs or the few S&W autos I've owned, had this amount of difficulty.
That said, I still have all the confidence I can muster that Rohrbaugh is committed and talented enough to get this little gun of theirs running reliably. We all agree on that, I believe.
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I've continued to have frequent, that is, every round or every other round, FTFs even after top end replacement (for a slide crack), and even after firing now some 210+ rounds through my #R9xx Rohrbaugh.
This appears to improve as the gun gets dirty, say after about 20 rounds, then becomes problematic again past a certain point, maybe 50 rounds, during any particular outing with the gun.
FWIW, I'm a decades-long experienced shooter with advanced training certificates who's owned and shot dozens of handguns hundreds of thousands of rounds, and I'm not holding the gun wrong or interfering with the action of the slide, or "limp-wristing" or "flinching" or anything else.
The gun has had nothing through it but factory premium standard 9mm fodder, lately nothing but Gold Dot 124gr JHP.
Pretty disappointing.
My reason for going to the trouble to get a Rohrbaugh (and it took some doing to come by one) was as a backup or "last ditch" gun, and unless it's THOROUGHLY, COMPLETELY reliable, it simply won't serve in this capacity for me.
I didn't buy it as a toy or just to have "something different". If mine is a lemon, then it either needs fixin' or replacement.
If I can't get satisfaction on this, I'll carry my 340PD again instead. At least with it I know I have 5 shots, guaranteed, of .38 Special 135gr Gold Dot +P JHP.
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Again I feel your pain!
However, we need to be objective in looking at this. Only a few guns are having problems and I feel the RBros will take care of these and fix them.
I have sold quite a number of these R9s and no problems.
Tom
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I'm only at 62 rounds and already wonder what the future will bring.
I'm concerned that we have spent so much money and have to deal with this uncertainty. My plan was to get the best available and be done with it.
Is it time to recall certain guns with serial numbers having reliability problems and material failures?
I recognize that Mr. Rohrbaugh is an honorable man who will guarantee his product.
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Bill, please don't jump off the cliff on this.
Don't over react, your gun has no problems.
Lets not pre judge this!
Tom
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Chris, what is your take on this and cracked slides?
Tom
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It seems like a fair number of owners have shot their guns very little. Still, if you've had nothing but perfect function, why worry?
Unfortunately, my concern is that I've had nothing but problems even though I've shot over 200 rounds and keep shooting the little dingus, hoping the problems will go away! At this point I feel I need a definitive solution, whether it's a thoroughgoing refurbishment, a new gun, or failing that, to just give up and ask for a refund.
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Tom, I've been fortunate to have no problems during 62 rounds. Like you, I believe only a small number of guns have failed, and the product is a stunning success.
Still, considering the cost, I think they all should be near perfect.
I would feel better to know if defects are limited to a certain range of serial numbers.
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R93x will fly out tonight and be in Deer Park in the morning. I've been trained by Gunsite instructors (and dozens of NCOS!) so I know it's not me. First day's shooting was uneventful. This pistol is too difficult to fieldstrip to work on, and the FedEx charge is reasonable since it's all under 2-1/2 pounds in the box.
-- Chuck
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Tom - well re cracked slide aspect - I have posted quite a bit of my thoughts in the thread on same. --
http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/YaBB.cgi?board=R9S;action=display;num=1128349316
I consider this a metallurgical problem and not an inherent design fault.
The failures tho - you know this is a tricky one. Hardest of all is to see so many pups that behave well and then we have a significant number of cases where it seems reliability is compromized. And yes, this is a concern for sure. I cannot as yet satisfy myself as to an explanation - much theorizing but no hard answers. I said to someone here a while back - wish to blazes I could see and try first hand, any troublesome guns. Not because I'd have any easy answer necessarily but just to experience the troubles and to try and deduce what is going on.
As ever with semi's mag's are critical - angle of presentation of rounds is vital. And yet - since some earlier mag' issues when my guns came out - I had felt that mag's were now very much consistent and sorted out.
Without the ''troublemakers'' in hand to shoot - I am still very much in a vacuum, I must admit.
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I do know that if there is a problem-Rohrbaugh will take care of it!!
I just talked to Karl yesterday and this is a person that cares about the people that are using his product!!
I feel for everyone that is having a problem,of one kind or another,but please know that this pup of ours will stay the course..
I would not carry it to protect my wife and kids, if I did not feel this way!! 8) 8)
I do know that I carry daily with a pup,and that I own more than 2.. ;)
Wish the best for all my fellow pup owners.. :)
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Very well said, Brenden.
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+1
My 2nd pup arrived at my dealer today. I've commited my self to the R9s. It renders all my other deep concealment weapons useless!
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I had a bad outing today with my R9S. ???
Up thru 200 rounds mine's been pretty good, other than the barrel's chamber rubbing thru the anodizing. (Prior thread on this.)
Changed the recoil spring at 200 rounds because it took a set of almost two full coils.
Fired 52 rounds - 26 rounds 124 gr. Speer Gold Dot, and 26 rounds Blazer 124 gr. brass case FMJ. The first two magazines were big trouble: Three malf's on each magazine. First a double feed, where the round didn't chamber and the next round jammed tight against the top one. Locked up tight. With all that Super Lube grease on the moving parts, trying to nudge the slide back, work the heel release for the mag, and pry the mag out (all while pointing the pup in a safe direction!!) is fun. Like wrangling greased pigs is fun. :P
The Stop Stick in my range kit came in handy in popping the mag loose.
Next I had a failure to go fully into battery, a stovepipe, another failure to go into battery, a nosedive against the feed ramp. etc. These were all with 124 gr. Gold Dots.
Then I tried the Blazer FMJs. Everything worked fine.
The final 13 rounds were Gold Dots; they fed and functioned fine.
I'm wondering: Maybe the brand new recoil spring was getting things out of whack??? When I stripped it down for cleaning I compared the now-50-round-old recoil spring to the 200-round-old spring and found it had set by just more than one coil. From now on, I'm going to hand cycle the slide maybe 50 times before shooting it.
We used to hand cycle racing engine valve springs on the load checking fixture a couple dozen times before measuring tension at valve-seated and valve-open conditions.
The good news is: No indications of cracking on the slide.
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Question is why would a new replacement spring be a
problem when the new spring on the new gun was not;
unless, as you say, there was some cycling and break-in
at the factory---good thought on cycling the new springs
through before firing. Again, this is quirky that should
not be required on a quality firearm.
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Tracker,
Well, one thing that is different from "When new" condition is the magazine springs. I don't have any brand new mags to try, and I'm sure the springs in my original ones have taken a bit of a set.
I did measure the spring lengths when new, but haven't stripped the mags down lately. My experience with other magazines is that the springs are good for thousands of rounds. I think I'll strip one today & re-measure the free length.
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Rohrbaugh received my R9S abourt 1100 this morning. I received a telephone call from Karl Rohrbaugh within 90 minutes to discuss the problem.
-- Chuck
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one thing in the back of my head during all this was that, after my R9s came back from Rohrbaugh and still didn;t work right, I put it away for a while, like months, then pulled it out again. It's been fine ever since.
There was a noticable difference in the strength of the recoil spring. When I broke the pistol down, I was able to pull out the guide rod, and replace it, using just my fingers and no wrench. Clearly the spring set during its time in my drawer.
So now, with the weakened spring, the pistol works nicely and, honeslty, I am not nxious to change the spring at all! I know I'm supposed to after another 50 rounds or so, but I really don't want to.
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Thanks everyone for providing the feedback on the spring.
It looks like the spring plays a major role in malfunctions. Perhaps the factory will prepare the springs in the future.
I'll be changing springs with great caution.
Bill
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OK, I left the R-9S lubed but uncleaned since last weekend (since it seemed to feed more reliably if slightly but not very dirty) and shot it again today.
I gave up after 35 rounds and 7 FTFs.
An average of a FTF every 5 rounds is obviously unacceptable.
I'll call Rohrbaugh Monday.
I feel like I've given this little gun every chance to "break in" and work.
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Mine is very recent manufacture: R93x is the serial.
Yours near?
It went to Deer Park last week.
-- Chuck
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Sawbones,
Sorry to learn of your frustrations with your R9s. It's started to seem that an awfull lot of these guns are having difficulties much more than I've observed with other brands. I love my R9s and matter of fact have purchased a 2nd. But are we falling victim to believe our own BS? I mean "Yea I know it was designed to shot only 7 rounds flawlessly". "It's not a target or range gun", "It's to be carried a lot and shot very little".
I understand all this but if you can't shoot it for more than a full box (50) rounds with out failure how in God's name can you stake your life on it?
How bout it guy, step up and let us know who out there, after they've"broken in" their 9s can fire 50 rounds stright (no time limit I know the gun gets hot" with out failure? Hopefully Sawbones example will be in the minority. I've only 125 rounds through mine and have only been able to fire the last 25 rounds after a thourgh cleanning flawlessly.
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Sawbones,
I'll let you know next week. I expect to fire at least 50 rounds. That will bring my round count to 300 total. If it ain't broke in by then, it won't ever break in.
After my fiasco last week, I think I've got the troubles pinned down to the new recoil spring. I hand-cycled 50 rounds thru the gun; everything seemed smooth. For economic reasons, I'll start with a few Gold Dots, fire mostly Blazer Brass FMJ's, & finish with a mag of Gold dots. Hand cycling rounds thru the gun resulted in a bunch of dented cases! :o
As I said in another thread on dented cases, I think the top edge of the chamber is denting those unfired rounds as they're being extracted. The bullet won't allow the case to eject as quickly as a fired case cycles out of the chamber and thru the ejection port.
Keeping my fingers and toes crossed.....
Steve S.
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"...but if you can't shoot it for more than a full box (50) rounds with out failure how in God's name can you stake your life on it?"
Exactly, Irondealer.
I want to like this little gun.
I was quite prepared to like it.
I went to considerable trouble to acquire it, and I've tried to make allowances for it and to give it the benefit of the doubt, but when it still has FTFs after some 250 rounds,
(even after relacement of a cracked slide!!!), and this on a gun intended to be "carried much, shot little", I think a definitive, decisive solution is called for, including troubleshooting and repair or replacement by the factory, including testing of the repaired or replaced gun before it gets sent back to me!
(Mine's serial number R90x, BTW.)
I'm not trying to be a wet blanket, I'd just like to have a gun I can rely on without fail.
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It has to be 100% reliable. There is no other choice.
The pistol is worth nothing if you cannot rely on it.
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I'm sure everyone has already thought about this, but would it be worthwhile for a couple of friends to also fire the pistol which is acting up?
Could it be that there is an occasional mismatch between man and machine, perhaps something about the hand size and shape?
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It would be interesting to get a bunch of us together to fire each others pistols...
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Rohrbaugh received my R9S abourt 1100 this morning. I received a telephone call from Karl Rohrbaugh within 90 minutes to discuss the problem.
-- Chuck
I'm still awaiting to hear from Mr. R and they've had my jammed piece since last Tuesday. Interesting.
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I wouldn't read anything into it. They're a small shop (6 folks, IIRC), and who knows what demads might be on Karl's shoulders this week.
Given the experiences of everyone I've read of who's sent a gun back to Rohrbaugh (including myself), yours will get fixed good as new but functioning 100%. Mine actually took a couple of weeks - and man, did they seem long ;) - before it was back in my hands.
Anyway, I know what you're going through - concern that it won't be fixable and that you're going to be out this considerable pile of money . . . and you want your gun back! :) I feel for you as you go through it, but . . . if past indicators have anything to do with future performance . . . it's going to work out fine. Hang in there, amigo! :)
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Erich,
Those were very soothing words. Very comforting and well said.
You would make a great negotiator for law enforcement.
In fact, I needed to read your remarks, and I'm not even having any problems.
If Skyhook ever takes us for an airplane ride, and throws the stick out the window, I would immediately contact you on the radio.
:)
Bill
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Given the experiences of everyone I've read of who's sent a gun back to Rohrbaugh (including myself), yours will get fixed good as new but functioning 100%.
As good as new but functioning 100%! And the implication here is that a new R9 won't function 100%! LOL
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;D
None of my customers have had any problems with their guns, ranging # from 1xx to 9xx.!!! ::)
Tom
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::)
"Fixed as good as new..." Well, in my case, I certainly hope it is fixed 'better than new'. ;)
Bill, that story of the 'stick overboard' is one funny standard!
I try not to loose anything overboard. :o ;D
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Thanks for the compliment, Bill! :)
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My R-9S is on its way back to Deer Park, again.
Cost me $64 again, dammit, UPS, insured, overnight.
I have to say, I'm tired of this.
Cracked slide, consistent FTFs, peened barrel.
I asked them to not send it back till it's genuinely fixed.
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Just got a phone mail message from Karl Rohrbaugh offering to refund my purchase price for the gun, said they couldn't fix it.
A generous offer, I'm sure, but now that I've gone to the expense of acquiring several nice pocket holsters (left-handed), I'm not sure what I'll do! Maybe see if anyone would wish to buy them?
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I'm very sorry to hear the bad news, SAWBONES. That is a tough decision.
If it helps any, my pistol has never failed, although the rounds fired count is only 62.
It has successfully fired Gold Dot 124, Ranger 147, Federal HS 124, WWB 115, and Magsafe 60. I was pleased that it handled such a variety.
I'm reluctant to say anymore, and express my true concerns, because the remarks might be construed as disparaging.
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Was there an offer to replace it?
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Just got a phone mail message from Karl Rohrbaugh offering to refund my purchase price for the gun, said they couldn't fix it.
A generous offer, I'm sure, but now that I've gone to the expense of acquiring several nice pocket holsters (left-handed), I'm not sure what I'll do! Maybe see if anyone would wish to buy them?
Although I vowed to never post here again as I do not do sycophancy well and anything else is, well, sort of Un-Rohrbauchian, I do have to ask, sawbones: Were you offered a NEW R9 instead of a refund??
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Yes, I also wonder if replacement with a new pistol was offered.
Bill
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Skyhook, PM sent.
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I was unable to take the cell phone call when it came, so all I got was the phone message left by Karl Rohrbaugh, which offered the refund but made no mention about replacement.
I'm not sure if Rohrbaugh CAN replace the whole gun without my filling out Form 4473.
OTOH, I must admit that, cynic that I am, I wondered if I might have been deemed a "troublemaker" at Rohrbaugh, and considered better to be rid of with an offer of a refund instead of replacement.
I make no judgement of any kind as yet, and will be contacting Rohrbaugh again when I get a minute's peace (maybe tomorrow?), but I do think that a refund offer is decent of the company in any case.
I'll post again when I know more.
Thanks to everyone for your good wishes!
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sawbones; I can't help feeling that real-time problems as compared to, say, nasty attitudes, should in no way be cause to label you as a trouble-maker. After all, did you make the trouble?? I don't think so.
Am I wrong to think that you, like the rest of us simply want that little, beautiful, gun to function reliably? I doubt it.
Anyhow, if you are a 'Trouble-Maker', so am I amd so are others who are simply reporting the facts as they occur.
BTW, my R9s is supposedly in transit headed back to me today... wish me luck, ya all. 8)
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Skyhook,
Glad to hear the good news about your gun coming home.
I hope it works great for you! Please tell everyone about the new results. We are sure interested.
Bill
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;D
None of my customers have had any problems with their guns, ranging # from 1xx to 9xx.!!! ::)
Tom
All this has me thinking: My initial problems were with the gun when new. It seemed to settle in nicely, no problems at all, after a while (and a tune up by Rohrbaugh) and I am a very happy owner. It seemed to get the best results after the first cleaning or two. I can't explain it, other than this recoil spring thing. I'm wondering if the springs were too new (or too high in tension) at first, but once 'relieved' of stress, it worked like it's supposed to.
I JUST cleaned my R9 for the 3rd time, and decided to replace the recoil spring (the one that came with the gun originally). I have not yet been to the range, but if I start jammin' man, methinks it's a fountainhead, not a spring...
Steve
BTW-I saved the old spring just in case
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The kind thoughts are appreciated, Skyhook.
No, I certainly don't consider myself a troublemaker, but to a manufacturer, a customer with complaints might be considered such.
I don't know that I've been judged to be a problem customer at Rohrbaugh. As I say, I have yet to call Karl Rohrbaugh back.
Anyway, I bought the gun not to complain about, but to shoot and to carry as a classy, lightweight-but-efficient little BUG, but if it's not reliable, it can't serve in that capacity for me.
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"Anyway, I bought the gun not to complain about, but to shoot and to carry as a classy, lightweight-but-efficient little BUG, but if it's not reliable, it can't serve in that capacity for me. "
I concur 100%.
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Fired most of a box of generic Federal 115gr FMJ 10 days ago, cleaned, lubed and back to the range last night to find a reliable JHP. Wouldn't feed the only standard velocity Golden Sabers the shop had (147gr) so, rather than waste all the time I decided to fire 115gr FMJ again.
Wouldn't feed that more than every other round either! I don't think the slide is cycling far enough as sometimes the chamber is empty, other times there's a live cartridge half way in. Extraction and ejection is fine.
My recent experience seems very similar to this. Any new updates from Chuck, Skyhook and others?
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Well, sgt., I haven't been here for some time for I am, sadly, out of the R9 business.
Karl, genntleman that he is, worked with me until all avenues were tried and exhausted. I simply could not get the gun to function reliably for me. The shop guys fired magazine after magazine in it w/o failure... me? Another story.
So, here I sit disappointed and R9-less.
I wish you better fortune.
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I started this thread four months ago.
Rohrbaugh has bought the pistol back as nothing I can do (stance, grip, grip tape) or feed it (literally over a dozen different 9mm's tried) works. For me.
There is, apparently, a tiny quirk in the pistol's design or timing which only affects a small portion of shooters. My former pistol functioned fine in my friend's hands as well as Karl Rohrbaugh's. Karl has informed me that his SWAT buddy, however, gets failures to feed with the R9 that Karl carries every day.
Crying shame as this pistol would drill the 10 ring out of NRA pistol targets at 7 yards; it just wouldn't function in my hands.
I'd be carrying this pisol daily if I could shoot it.
-- Chuck
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Thanks for the story, Chuck. I'm sorry the pistol did not work for you.
The initial reports of problems experienced by shooters were very troublesome.
We all seem to recognize now that a tiny handful of shooters are not able to use the R9 successfully. I remember how Skyhook tried hard to make it work, but finally had to give up.
Best wishes,
Bill
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As to my last post, I screwed up and put my message in the quoted part. It should read:
First, I've been negligent in my duty to contribute to the list, and I
apologize for it. It's been an overwhelming week, with my Mom AND
favorite brother in the hospital. Mom has a broken neck (YIKES!)
and must have surgery, and my bro has pneumonia. Also my sister
has a life threatening disease and I must say how lucky I am it's not
me! But I am so concerned about them all! When it rains, it pours...
Not looking for sympathy though, unless it's because I haven't had time
to occupy myself here.
But I digress....
This concept of a gun just not working for some people, while working fine for others is very strange. I need to reconcile this, as I have had issues with a couple other guns (but certainly not all of them!) and I now wonder if it was me instead of the gun.
My R9S is so wonderful now, I don't know how I lived without it all these years. Mine is flawless; a fine pistol. I can't speak highly enough of Karl, Eric and Maria and the crew. It takes big ones to start up something like Rohrbaugh and I applaud them. They ARE the American Dream...
Hayword N. Edgewise
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Hi Steve
Nice to see you post again.
Sorry Steve your family is going through all the health problems. Hope as Spring dawns with new life so will be the same for your family.
Dave
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Chuck - good to see again and sorry your pup did not work out.
It seems to be a fact that there are a few who just do not and cannot get on with it. Seems not a fault in the gun per se - but some combination of factors that make it unsuitable for a few.
Steve - good to see you too and I also am sorry it is pouring as against raining - that in itself is usually enough! I do hope things will resolve.
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Steve,
I'm also glad to see you posting.
I hope those family health issues are quickly resolved.
Best wishes,
Bill