The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: Guinnessdog on June 12, 2006, 03:02:57 PM
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Hello all, for those of you who may be unfamiliar with the saga, please refer to:
http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/YaBB.cgi?board=R9S;action=display;num=1147969546
I got a call from Karl Rohrbaugh last Wednesday, 6-7-06, and he described the warranty work done on my gun. He said the guide rod threads were out of spec by .005", and broke as a result. He also said there was some sort of spur on the barrel that was causing the malfunctions. The barrel was replaced, and he personally ran 100 rounds through the gun without any malfunctions. He said he fired 50 rounds of ball and 50 Gold Dots, cleaned it up and would be ship it out the next day.
I received the gun two days later, for overall turnaround time of 12 days. I thought that was pretty good, and I was impressed that he took the time to call me. A friend who has had some problems with his Kahr PM40 has not yet heard from Jason Moon...
I just got back from the range, having fired about 120 rounds. The results were disappointing.
I fired one box of Blazer Brass 115gr. ball, and had many failures to feed and failures to go fully into battery. The failures to feed were of the type where the breechface rides up over the base of the cartridge. These are easily cleared by pulling back on the slide and releasing, driving the round home. The failures to go fully into battery were cleared by simply pressing on the back of the slide, and the slide would close on the round. Out of 50 rounds, there were about 10 failures.
I then fired 40 rounds of 115gr. Gold Dots, with miserable results. It would jam constantly. I was never able to get through an entire magazine without some sort of failure, and sometimes it would be every other round. Out of 40 rounds, I had at least 12 malfunctions. I quit counting!
Most took the form of the aforementioned breechface sliding over the base of the round, but some were very puzzling. In one instance, the slide failed to fully close, coming up about a quarter inch short. I tried pushing on the rear of the slide but it would not budge. I couldn't tell what it was binding on, so I ejected the round and discovered that the next round in the mag had a big gouge in it where the breechface had dug into it. It seems that the rounds were tipping inside the mag and dragging on the slide's underside to the point where it would hang up.
I then decided to switch to some 115gr. WWB ball. The gun was pretty dirty by this point, so I didn't have much hope. Surprisingly, the pup gobbled these up without a hitch. I got about halfway through the box when I discovered that the grip screws on both sides were backing out. Arrrgh! I put the pup to rest at that point.
I'll tighten up the screws and test some more ammo, but I'm really starting to suspect the magazines at this point. If the rounds are not being presented properly, that would account for all of my problems. However, both mags have the same problems. Did Karl use my magazines during his test firing? I don't know.
Before leaving the range, I fired 50 rounds of 125gr. 38 Special +P's through my scandium J-frame carry gun. There were no failures of any kind.
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Guinnessdog,
It sure does sound like magazine issues. Do you know any other R9 owners you could swap mags with?
Your experience doesn't fit my "too-strong recoil spring" pet theory.
Small, powerful guns seem to have no margin for error in their tolerances, do they?
Steve
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Thanks for the update Guiness! More importantly thanks for saving me the cost and agravation on mailing mine back! Im sorry to say I figured this would be the end result. Im also sorry for your misfortune with the "pup". Keep us posted on the magazine issue.
I have to commend you on your patience! Guess ill submit to the peer pressure and just call it a day with mine. Everyones right, The guns perfect, Its just me, I and others such as yourself must be limpwristing it, Its not for everyone you know! Im sure if theses were not refurbs theyd work fine, and the moon and stars must be out of alignment.
Now, who among us wants to buy my "pup"? It desearves a good home to someone able to handle such a fine piece of craftsmanship?
HOLD IT LIKE YOU MEAN IT!~~~~~
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Kool,
You could just contribute it to Waste Management and
be done with it.
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Guinnessdog,
Did you return your magazines to Rohrbaugh along with the gun? You should always do that and in fact Eric, Karl or Maria usually ask that you do. If so, I don't think it's a magazine issue.
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Yup, I sent in the mags.
Here's more:
Perhaps I'm a glutton for punishment, but I did some more shooting with the pup. Last night I put some blue locktite on the grip screw threads and let it set up overnight. Today I went to the range and tested two loads: 147gr. Silvertips and 124gr. Golden Saber.
I shot 50 Silvertips first. Things went well until about halfway through, then I had one round mash its nose into the bottom edge of the feed ramp, where it wouldn't budge until I removed the magazine to clear it. Somewhere around round 35 the slide closed on an empty chamber with two rounds still in the mag. Then on round 48, the last round in the mag, the cartridge stuck straight up with its base in the magazine and the nose pointing skyward.
Strangely, I consider this an improvement.
Then I switched to the Golden Sabers. I had a good feeling about this round when I looked at the shape of the bullet, as it has a nice curve to it that I thought would aid feeding.
Out of 50 rounds, I had one failure to go fully into battery. This was remedied by a light nudge to the rear of the slide. There were no other malfunctions. Pleased with this new development, I went back to the store to buy up their remaining supply of GS, but they were out of it, much to my chagrin.
I figured I can lay in a supply from the various online sources.
At this point I do not consider the problem solved, although things are looking better. Maybe my gun just likes that load and no others. I won't really know until I shoot it a lot more and see if it keeps working. I don't consider the one failure to be that big of a deal, as the gun was quite gunky by that point.
I was pretty happy with where things sat until I got home and began cleaning the gun. It was at that point I discovered one grip screw on each side had left for parts unknown.
This gun reminds me of a Brazilian woman I once knew. Finicky, tempermental, both hard and easy to love. But when held just right and properly lubricated... spectacular.
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If the Golden Sabers work for you great. Some have had problems with them because the primers seem harder than some.
I still use 115 Golddots and 115 Silvertips - still haven't had a problem with them.
Respect your determination to get the Pup to work for you.
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I like Golden Sabers and use them in other guns. I never tried them in the R9 based on what I read here, but maybe now I'll give them a try. Nothing to lose.
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"This gun reminds me of a Brazilian woman I once knew. Finicky, tempermental, both hard and easy to love. But when held just right and properly lubricated... spectacular. "
Now, that sound like a fond memory !!
And reminds me of a line an old song, ".....she was hotter than a pistol" [$2, I left out]
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Just returned from the range, having fired off 50 rounds of Golden Sabers. This seems to be the round my pup likes.
I had no failures until the second-to-last round, which had what would be called a stovepipe except the empty brass was snagged lengthwise, as opposed to sticking out at a 90 degree angle.
I'm not terribly concerned by that, as we all know the pup works best when clean. However, it did end my otherwise excellent shooting session on a sour note.
I had purchased some new magazines from Rohrbaugh and was shooting with those. I marked the mag I was using when the failure occured, and will do further testing on it and my other magazines. My pet theory is some of the problems I have been experiencing are magazine related, so I'll continue the tests with different mags and see what happens.
Maybe it is not mag related at all, but that is one variable that is easy to control.
Captain Koolaid, I feel your pain. I wish my pup worked as well as most other people's. I had broken my rule about buying anything "refurbished," and now I'm dealing with it. I won't be buying any more used guns from now on! (Except that Glock 33 I just picked up for a song - but hey, it's a Glock, so of course it will gobble up ammo without a hiccup like a Sumo wrestler at a wienie roast).
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. I won't be buying any more used guns from now on! (Except that Glock 33 I just picked up for a song - but hey, it's a Glock, so of course it will gobble up ammo without a hiccup like a Sumo wrestler at a wienie roast).
Guinnessdog - glad it is working out. Run some 115 Gold Dots through now and see if they have improved. I agree though to stick with what works.
As far as Glocks - they have their hiccups also. A malfuntioning Glock shot my brother - he lived.
Keep it up and you'll need a spring change soon.
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Guinnessdog,
I noticed you used the silver tip 147 gr. I recommend you try the 115 gr. They work best in my pup.
Fred
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One thing I always suggest to anyone with semi's - even tho ideally no gun should ever malfunction - and that is the ability to clear trouble fast.
Sometimes ''tap-rack-bang'' can do it, tho stovepipes are probably one our worst potential nightmares. That said however, when at the range fake a stovepipe and then clear the gun quick as you can. That will usually mean rotating wrist 90º or more as slide pulled back sharply, in hope gravity will see the empty come out.
Of course on occasions that problem can be coupled with next round being part advanced and everything jams!! However, my main point is with any semi - it is worth some failure drill practice, just in case, seeing as the ever present Murphy will probably decide the day you want 100% that, no - you can only have 90% :D
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OK, so I'm at the range again today, and now the pup doesn't like anything. Fired 25 rounds of GS, 40 of Hydra Shoks, and 20 of Gold Dots. It choked on all flavors. I know it doesn't like GDs, but I have a bunch of it laying around and figured what the hey. I was getting a malfunction about once every other magazineful.
I think by now the recoil spring is getting a bit tired, so maybe that's the problem today. The spring has over 300 rounds on it by now, and is noticably shorter than a new one.
It seemed to do best with the HSs, and all malfunctions were of the type where the round was not fully driven home, and a push on the back of the slide solved things. Those are the type of malfunctions that respond well to tap, rack, bang clearing, but it was frustrating in that I thought I had more or less solved things with the GS ammo.
This is starting to get tedious. And expensive. Why didn't I buy a brand-new one from Tom in the first place?!!
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"This gun reminds me of a Brazilian woman I once knew. Finicky, tempermental, both hard and easy to love. But when held just right and properly lubricated... spectacular. "
Now, that sound like a fond memory !!
And reminds me of a line an old song, ".....she was hotter than a pistol" [$2, I left out]
Guinnesdog:
It may well be that RJ has "broken the code" on the problem with your little pistol. (I, however, am forbidden by "higher authority" to discuss any similar analogies drawn from my own personal experience which might be apropos of the foregoing analysis. :-/ )
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Guinnessdog,
I bought mine new and I am haveing similar problems.
For my 4th range trip I have bought another magazine, 2 new recoil springs and am going to take about 8 different kinds of ammunition. The only ammo that I haven't got yet is the Golden Sabers and the Hydra Shocks.
At the end of the second range trip is was feeding Silvertips pretty good so I thought it was broke in and my problems were solved but then at the third range trip with a new box of Silvertips the pup was back to it's bad jamming habits.
I also suspect that most of my problems are magazine related. I have been relating my experiences in other threads on this forum and will keep all informed about how things are going. It may be a couple weeks before I get back out to the range.
Don't feel bad Guinnessdog, I am in the same boat as you are. I am going to keep working on the pup but I must say for the price of these things they should function better than they do. By this I mean all of them, some have had very few problems and others have purchased a nightmare. I have not given up yet. One way or another I am going to make the pup work for me. Guinessdog, you and me seem to have a lot of stick toitavness. I wish you the best of luck and hope you will do the same for me.
Mike
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I'm starting to come to the belief that the problems I'm having are recoil spring related. Once I put a new spring in, there seems to be a window sometime after the first 50 rounds and before 250 where functioning is quite good. By quite good I mean one misfeed out of 50, or 98%.
When I was more youthful I spent a little time learning how to shoot people at extremely long ranges. We kept very careful track where our rifle placed its first shot fired that day. This "cold barrel round" was critical knowlege, as in a real situation one wouldn't get an opportunity to do any warming up...
Similarly, in a real self-defense situation, I don't need the pup to fire 50 rounds. If it works flawlessly when firing the first two mags, I'm totally cool with that. If I need more than two magazines full, I should be carrying a rifle, which might get me some odd looks as I go about my day.
Unfortunately, I've had many malfunctions in the first two mags using many different loads. I'm starting to doubt if I'll ever reach a level of confidence in the pup where I'd actually carry it, which makes it kind of useless.
Mike, I hope I'm wrong, but I'll keep at it and keep reporting my findings.
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Guinnessdog,
I have also noticed the window of decent performance with the recoil springs. That is why a have 2 new ones for my next range trip. I will keep you and all informed of how this plays out and if the new mag makes any difference. I don't know about the mag. As far as I can tell it is identical to the 2 that came with the gun.
type at you later, Mike
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groo here
I got my pup lastweek and I put 200 rds through it!
And yes iI sent it back.
the jams started about 125+ rds .
Mr "K" replaced the barrel and r spring and test fired it.
The following things are from a long talk with Mr "K".
1# this is not a gun you shoot a bunch,
shoot 3 mags and let it cool!
2# this gun needs to be clean and lubed not oiled
tight guns need lube! and springs are important !
3# shoot with one hand ,this is a defence gun
4# use the correct ammo
115 gr 124 gr or lighter no +p or heavy weights
try the rem 105 no lead loads
We try to shoot the pup like any other gun which it is not
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groo,
Welcome to the forum, and thanks for sharing the information.
I had heard an earlier suggestion that the gun be fired with one hand.
Bill
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Welcome Groo,
There is something to what Karl says. I only shoot several mags at most in a session and have never had a problem. This week only one mag when I shoot up the King book posted in another thread. I only use 115 gr GDHP or Silvertips.
Too many people are worried about having several hundred jam free rounds through it to trust the R9 so they shoot too many in one session I feel.
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MountainMan and all,
I am not interested in several hundred jam free rounds. I would be happy if I could get 2 mags thru it without a jam.
If I can get 2 jam free mags per range trip for 3 or 4 trips I will be happy. Of course this includes thorough cleaning and lubrication after those 2 jam free mags. This would be close to the conditions to be duplicated for a carry gun. I do not carry an extra mag and even if I did have to use it for self defense it is unlikely that I would have to fire more than 2 or 3 shots so 2 jam free mags is my bottom line to feel confident in the R9S as a carry gun.
Mike
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I agree with what you say for your situation Mike. Hope you find a solution.
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As I've stated before, I only really expect it to operate 100% under ideal conditions, meaning: spotlessly clean, well lubed, warm from being in my pocket, firing a load it likes, and only a magazine or two. That's why I was so excited to get close to 50 rounds thru it before a jam; for a gun designed for this purpose, that's well beyond what you would ever need in an emergency.
As a comparison, I never shoot a lot of rounds in one session with my scandium J-frame .357 Smith & Wesson, as it gets a mite uncomfortable after, oh, about 1 round.
However, I know that every single time I stroke the trigger the gun will go off. I know this because I've fired over 1000 rounds thru it, and it has worked every single time.
Rant follows:
I reject the very notion of a gun that is "carried often and shot seldom." If you're carrying a gun for personal protection, you owe it to yourself and, more importantly, the general public, to be highly proficient with that gun. Not just guns in general but that particular gun. That means you have to shoot it a lot.
Maybe that means you only fire a handful of rounds at a time, but you better do it often. I know, people are busy, there's not enough time, I can't get to the range, it's too expensive, etc., etc. I feel the same way.
But if you're carrying a little gun like an R9, it is that much more important to train often, because it's that much harder to shoot well. If you can't or won't shoot often, do us all a favor and carry something bigger, that way you might actually hit what you're shooting at.
So I'm planning on shooting my R9 a lot. Maybe not all at once, just 20 rounds or so at a time, but it damn well better work right!
Rant off.
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Guinnessdag,
I understand your views on a carry gun and pretty much agree, however, from the wear I have seen on the frame of the R9 and keeping in mind that the frame is an aluminum alloy I am in the camp that the R9 in ment to be carried a lot and fired a little. I am inpressed that the R9 frame has not had a lot more of the cracking issues that I have heard about in an older batch.
On the hitting what you are aiming at issue. I find that the R9 has a wonderfully natural pointing characteristic. I am sure that I could not fire this gun in a couple of years but then still hit center of mass at 30 feet if the necessity arose.
Now here is what would be really cool. An R9 with a Titanium frame like my Beretta 3032 Tomcat Titanium. Wear and cracking would be a non issue and weight would only increase slightly.
Mike
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Riffraff, Thank you for sharing your information obtained from Mr. R. I may have to give the pup another try one handed and let it cool between magazines. Like Guiness Im not looking for 50 rounds trouble free, But I do have to make it thru 36 to qualify with it. I agree it should be shot very little (conserve the recoil spring) but the lighter bullets, now thats a differant story for me. My PUP seems to digest 147 grain better than the others and has a definate taste for Winchesters SXT LEO load.
I will try your suggestions. I too am in love with this little guns feel, ergonomics, etc. but thiers nothing more frustrating than to have a few reliability issues, only to log on here and see the typical koolaid chant that your limpwristing it, its you, its not the gun, thiers nothing wrong with the gun, etc. Ive heard that with many substandard guns but this time...well, you get the idea. I compare it to calling a mechanic and saying your car wont start only to have him ask, "is it got gas in it"?
Anyway, Im gonna tough it out and most of the folks on the board here have been very supportive, Hopefully Guinness and I can one day boast of the reliability many others on this board share.
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the cracks did not happen to the frame but the slide in just a few guns. Tom
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Thanks for the correction Tom,
In the slide not the frame. I would never have guessed that was possible.
Mike
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Kool,
Why do you have to qualify with it?
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I'm not speaking for Capt.Koolaid, but if he's on the force, a number of departments now require you to qualifty with ANY firearm you carry, including backups and off-duty carry. The course of fire is sometimes abridged for backups, e.g., lower round counts, closer distances, drawing weapon from location carried (e.g., ankle holster, vest holster, pocket, ect.)
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I'm not speaking for Capt.Koolaid, but if he's on the force, a number of departments now require you to qualifty with ANY firearm you carry, including backups and off-duty carry. The course of fire is sometimes abridged for backups, e.g., lower round counts, closer distances, drawing weapon from location carried (e.g., ankle holster, vest holster, pocket, ect.)
We dont have to qualify with it in the same holster/carry configuration, But This is our departments rule, some departments in Ohio do not follow this requirement for off-dutys or backups.
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The pup's going back to the factory again. Now the hammer strut or mainspring or something broke, there is no tension on the hammer, it just flops around.
Also, the right front grip screw seems to be stripped.
I'll let you know what happens.
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That's crazy! Your R9 has been back about 3 times now right? Seems like everyone involved would be better off if Rohrbaugh stepped up and gave you a new gun...although FedEx might be a little disappointed...but hey, at least they got 6 trips out of you :-/
You & Rohrbaugh are probably pushing upwards of $250-300 in shipping now for the R9!
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Why do you think I'm kicking myself for not buying a new one in the first place? Although, in fairness, this is trip number 2 to the factory, I've spent way more trying to resolve issues than I saved in the initial expense of the gun.
I don't know what I was thinking, I never buy cheap tools because I know they'll be more expensive in the long run...
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I read that Texas requires qualification on every carry
gun for law enforcement officers.
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The pup's going back to the factory again. Now the hammer strut or mainspring or something broke, there is no tension on the hammer, it just flops around.
Guinness - I have been tracking Rohrbaughs from day one and have never heard of this problem. Interesting to find out what caused it.
Sorry guy you are going through all this. I have two and never a problem - not to make you feel bad - hope it works out for you in the long run. Maybe ask Roughbaugh if they will buy this one back and then call Tom Watson for a new one.
One of my great pups: Picture was really taken for a Bose knife forum post but didn't use it there - so figured why waste it - always nice to see a R9.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b216/melissa1948/P1010040.jpg)
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Sure seems one heck of a sorry tale of woe :(
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I read that Texas requires qualification on every carry
gun for law enforcement officers.
Alot of states are doing that. It seems to discourage officers who have and have used backup guns to keep those that would scream allegations of "drop gun".
Guiness, Man I feel bad for you. This is crazy. It would be better for ALL involved including Rohrbaugh to buy that thing back! What bothers me is these "refurbs" came with a warranty. And it was explained to me Rohrbaugh went over these guns to recondition them so they would have a warranty in the first place. If they truely are "lemons" (it happens) and have had parts "out of spec" etc. why didnt they catch them when they refurbed em? Thats the only arguement that keeps me from kicking myself for not buying a BRAND NEW R9 or getting another one. I dont know about you, but I didnt buy a refurb to save a few bucks, I did it because it was simply the ONLY Rohrbaugh Id seen for sale. I found out about this website while looking to purchase one approx 6 months ago. Having heard of the long waitlist for one, I jumped the first chance I got at one.
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Koolaid, you and I were thinking alike. I jumped at the first chance to get one, then found out a day later that Tom at Irish Guard gets brand-new ones in pretty regularly, so the wait would not have been more than a few weeks.
I'll keep everyone posted on what I hear from the factory. For what its worth, Marie seemed rather dismayed that I was having these problems.
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You all have me worried!!!! My reconditioned R-9s is due in tomorrow.
PursuitSS
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Just think positive and look forward to receiving it.
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Dave, that knife is just the best looking folding knife I have ever seen. You are a lucky man my friend.
Tom
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Dave, that knife is just the best looking folding knife I have ever seen. You are a lucky man my friend.
Tom
Thanks Tom - the Knife is the old Remington Trapper pattern. That knife Tom is worth more than the R9. Every part of it is hand made by Tony Bose. It has what is called a flush bolster and fits nice into the backpocket - the reason Tony called it a "backpocket".
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b216/melissa1948/P1000748.jpg)
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Hey Guinnessdog? Its been a while. Is your R-9 back from the factory?
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You all have me worried!!!! My reconditioned R-9s is due in tomorrow.
PursuitSS
@PursuitSS,
Has your R-9 come in yet?
If so, how's it shoot?
(please tell me you've had a chance to shoot it already!) ;D
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Yeah I have it, I hate to admit that I haven't shot it yet. I'm heading to Simmons Gun in Spring Hill, KS. and grabbing Winchester Silvertips, Federal HST's (HydroShock Two), and Speer Gold Dot's.
It WILL be shot this weekend (A LOT!)
PursuitSS
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Capt, I haven't heard anything. UPS says it was delivered 6-30-06, so it will be exactly 2 weeks tomorrow. Considering there was a long holiday weekend in there, I'm not too worried... yet. As soon as I get it back I'll write up a full report.
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Guinnessdog, they were closed for a short break and regrouping. You should hear from them soon.
Tom