The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: rooster on August 05, 2006, 10:36:46 AM
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I would like to purchase new mag springs for my pistol. I called Rohrbaugh and they said no one had tried to buy just mag springs yet and that they would call me back. In the mean time I went to the Wolf website and it turns out that they do not make the mag springs for that pistol. I then went to Checkmate and they had nothing on their site, that was useful, so I called back Rohrbaugh and they said that they were waithing to here from their supplier. Does anybody know of a source for springs? I find it hard to beleive that we cannot rebuild our mags.
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I agree with you, rooster. You often find writers saying that magazines are suspect when a pistol malfunctions. It would be useful to try spring replacement, instead of buying a new magazine.
On another note, when I ordered a new magazine from Rohrbaugh, the welding seams were no longer visible. They look much better now.
Bill
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Wolff doesn't even make mag springs for the Kahr. I went to their site looking for springs for some 9mm mags and nothing. This after looking on Kahrs website and realizing that ordering new springs costs almost as much as ordering new Kahr factory mags from some of the cheaper places.
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I would like to purchase new mag springs for my pistol. <snip> I find it hard to beleive that we cannot rebuild our mags.
I find it had to believe that you would ever need to replace magazine springs in your lifetime, unless you altered them in some way. Rohrbaugh does not use cheap springs and you are too smart to believe that urban myth about springs losing their elasticity just because you leave the magazine loaded more than <insert time period here>.
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The mags for my Kahr got weak. Mag springs don't get weak from staying loaded, but from being used. In other words when they're used through their range of motion, they'll get weak eventually. If they just stay loaded to a pressure within spec, they shouldn't lose their spring.
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You are quite right, after awhile they take a set and I usualy change out my springs when thet are about 2 coils shorter than a new one. Alot happens quickly after a round is fired and that spring has to get a fresh round up in time to be chambered. I know that these springs are very good but putting in new ones is cheap insurance.
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The mags for my Kahr got weak. Mag springs don't get weak from staying loaded, but from being used. In other words when they're used through their range of motion, they'll get weak eventually. If they just stay loaded to a pressure within spec, they shouldn't lose their spring.
I find it hard to believe that any owner of an R9 is shooting it enough to cause the mag springs to weaken. I would think that with high quality springs (and Rohrbaugh is supposed to use nothing but the best materials, right?) it would take many hundreds of cycles to weaken them to the point where they might begin to cause problems. Does anyone even have as many as 1000 rounds through their R9 other than Eric Rohrbaugh? 500 cycles, using 2 magazines and 6 rounds per cycle would be 6000 rounds fired.
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Almost any spring will take a "set" if compressed long enough. There are many factors involved, how far it is compressed, what are the design parameters, quailty of the steel, proper heat treating, etc.
Bottom line, if the spring is noticeably shorter than a new spring...............REPLACE IT!
Remember, Murphy was an optimist!
PursuitSS
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Shooting a pistol does not weaken the mag springs, being compressed all the time makes them take a set, and they can become shorter in length and also weaker in strength. Whenever I have bought other pistols there is a breakdown of all the parts and usually you can purchase any of the individual components. Your mag consists of the follower, spring, mag body, and floorplate if it is not welded to the body and the base pad. Springs can get rusty, bent and or broken. Followers wear if they are plastic, and numerous other things can happen. Now if I need a spring for whatever reason I cannot get one without buying a new mag. I mean I can get a takedown pin, grip screws and just about every other part to keep my weapon running except for mag parts. I just found that odd, I forgot to mention that Maria called me the other day and said she located a couple of springs for me and they are on their way so my problem is solved. If any of you other R owners are interested give her a call. They really are a first class company.
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I find it hard to believe that any owner of an R9 is shooting it enough to cause the mag springs to weaken.
As was already pointed out, springs get weaker by being and remaining compressed. I usually load all of my magazines to 80% of capacity -- and alternate every three months with unloaded magazines. That helps prolong the life of the spring and with 6 rounds (80% x 6 = 5.4 + 1) instead of 7, I still have one extra round more than in a J-frame.
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Back in my Army days, our HQ Company Armorer advocated changing out handgun magazines every 30 days -- "30 days on, 30 days off," was his mantra. Spring technology has made some serious advances since then. I now change out my magazines twice a year (along with my smoke detector batteries) when I change my clocks.
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As was already pointed out, springs get weaker by being and remaining compressed.
I think that's very much open to debate. It was also pointed out that they do not get weaker by remaining compressed but rather by being cycled. I can understand recoil springs needing replacement fairly often in a gun like the R9 but I'm not convinced that leaving a magazine loaded will weaken the springs enough to affect functioning, particularly with todays advances in metallurgy.
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I have often read that it is OK to keep a magazine fully loaded.
Mine might get switched once a year, just for the heck of it.
Here is a statement by Wolff Springs.
5. Should I unload my magazines, rotate magazines, load with fewer than the maximum rounds? How often should I change magazine springs?
Magazine springs in semi-auto pistols are one of the most critical springs and the subject of much debate and concern. Magazines which are kept fully loaded for long periods of time, such as law enforcement applications, will generally be subject to more fatigue than the weekend shooter's magazine springs which are loaded up only when shooting. Magazine design and capacity also affect the longevity of the spring. Older designs where maximum capacity was not the goal such as the 7 round 1911 Colt magazines will last for years fully loaded. There was a lot of room for a lot of spring which reduced the overall stress on the spring. In recent hi-capacity magazines, the magazines were designed to hold more rounds with less spring material. This puts more stress on the spring and will cause fatigue at a faster rate. Unloading these magazines a round or two will help the life of the spring. Rotating fully loaded magazines will also help the problem somewhat but is not always practical. In applications where the magazine must be kept loaded, a high quality magazine spring such as Wolff extra power magazine springs, will provide maximum life. Regular shooting will verify reliability and regular replacement of magazine springs will provide the best defense against failure from weak magazine springs.
Bill
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I also feel cycling ''tires'' springs more than remaining compressed but am aware too that my air weapon springs over time finish up shorter even with modest use - they do indeed take a ''set''.
It cannot do any harm to rotate mags anyways - from time to time. I still do it but not monthly.
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IMO,
I do not feel that leaving mags loaded is a detriment for function..
I have personally shot mags for an AR 15 that were loaded, at the least-15 years..All fed fine..
I am not going to worry about my pup's spring going "bad" with shooting every 2 weeks or so..Again-IMO..
Brenden
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I think that's very much open to debate. It was also pointed out that they do not get weaker by remaining compressed but rather by being cycled.
I need to come here more often ;D but as was already pointed out, ;) Wolff's own website says that springs DO indeed get weaker by remaining compressed rather than by being cycled and I would think that they know a thing or two about spring technology.
I recall the army USE TO advise their soldiers to load their M16s to only 80% of capacity (16 rounds in a 20 round mag) and when they did that, most failures were eliminated. The army no longer advises this but it sure as heck doesn't hurt ...
- 6 round mag is loaded with 5 rounds (6 x 0.8 = 4.8)
- 7 round mag is loaded with 6 rounds (7 x 0.8 = 5.6)
- 8 round mag is loaded with 6 rounds (8 x 0.8 = 6.4)
- 9 round mag is loaded with 7 rounds (9 x 0.8 = 7.2)
- 10 round mag is loaded with 8 rounds (10 x 0.8 = 8.0)
- 11 round mag is loaded with 9 rounds (11 x 0.8 = 8.8)
- 12 round mag is loaded with 10 rounds (12 x 0.8 = 9.6)
- 13 round mag is loaded with 10 rounds (13 x 0.8 = 10.4)
- 14 round mag is loaded with 11 rounds (14 x 0.8 = 11.2)
- 15 round mag is loaded with 12 rounds (15 x 0.8 = 12.0)
- Etc.
... I'd rather be a few rounds short than have the entire mag fail on me.
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To each is own. I just keep the mags I am carrying full and the mags put up to rest empty. Tom
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I rotate my magazines twice a year. The ones that were loaded become my practice magazines. That way, any developing problems will show up in practice.
I also load most magazines to full capacity.
If you are practicing as you should, the springs will eventually wear out. Yes, we have had many serious improvements in metallurgy, but the springs still remain the weakest point in the design of a semi-auto.
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I'm not saying that the springs will never wear out, but I don't think they wear out nearly as quickly or completely as some of you seem to think. If you want to replace them on a regular basis as a preventative measure, great. You can never be too careful. Personally, I don't think it's necessary to replace them very often at all.
While mag springs may indeed technically weaken over time by being compressed, I think it's a very small amount and will not normally affect function. Wolff may know a thing or two about springs, but remember, they're also in the business to sell springs.
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I could swear I heard Carl Rohrbaugh state on his website "wolff springs throughout the gun". As such, if Wolff is indeed the supplier, why wouldnt they sell the mag springs? Or recoil springs for that matter?
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I rotate my magazines twice a year. The ones that were loaded become my practice magazines. That way, any developing problems will show up in practice.
I also load most magazines to full capacity.
If you are practicing as you should, the springs will eventually wear out. Yes, we have had many serious improvements in metallurgy, but the springs still remain the weakest point in the design of a semi-auto.
I agree with you Bill. I rotate my 1911 magazines as you do, because they see FAR more use than my R9 does. From what I've read here in this forum, there is no one who shoots their R9 all that much.
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capt.koolaid,
It could be an agreement between Wolf and Rohrbaugh. Wolf is contractually prohibited from selling springs for the Rohrbaugh. This is just a guess.
Mike
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The magazine spring will let you know when it needs to be replaced. It probably doesn't need to be replaced before that.
Another reason why it is good to have extra magazines and rotate them is that the spring isn't the only thing that can go bad on a magazine. For example, I have accidently dropped magazines on my floor, bending the feed lips to the point that they were unusable. When things like that happen, it is nice to simply pull an unused magazine out, put the ammo from the damaged magazine in it, and be back to normal before your replacement magazine arrives from Rohrbaugh. If all you have is an extra spring, you are SOL.
I would think that Rohrbaugh would have an interest in maximizing the part and accessory availability for their pistols, because this is definitely a factor in deciding what gun to buy.
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When I shot IPSC with a comp 1911 and using Wilson mags, during the reloads the empty mags would hit the floor shooting indoors. I never had problems with my mags ever. I usually shot about 500 rounds to 1000 rounds per week.
Tom
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Tom,
I've heard so many good things about the Wilson magazines, I just ordered a 47DA 8-rounder for my 1911.
I later read that 47D was the "most desired", but I figured that an aluminum base must be good for something, because it cost more. :)
Bill
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My own experience with Wilson magazines was middle of the road.
They definitely hit the floor of the indoor range many times during training, and most (but not all) survived the experience repeatedly without damage. The magazine bodies are generally good. However, the ones I have purchased more recently have springs that are a bit too weak for good functioning.
Lately I have been using Kimber Tac Mags in my 1911, with good results.
The best magazines I have ever used are those made by Glock. The metal-reinforced plastic seems to never get damaged. I've bought used ones that needed spring replacements, but almost all of the new ones I bought in 1997 are still functioning just fine, despite shooting typically 50-500 rounds per week.
Ruling out some of the aftermarket garbage that is available for Glocks, I have had the most problems with magazines made by Kel-Tec. One drop of a loaded magazine on the floor, and it is history. They also contribute to the possibility of a rimlock in .32 acp caliber, something that is impossible in a Seecamp and doesn't seem to happen with North American Arms guns. On the Kel-Tec forums, various spacer solutions have been proposed, but my own experimentation with spacers produced very negative results.
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I think Virgil Tripp makes some of the best 1911 magazines.
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I know Mr. Tripp does a fine job of chrome plating. He did my Sig P239 slide, and the aluminum frame got the Cobra coat.
I hated to put it in a holster, but decided what the heck. It's no good if you never shoot it.
There is just a faint sign of wear on the corners of the Cobra coat. That is, of course, to be expected. It still looks very nice.
Bill
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BillinPittsburgh, during my training, we were also taught to push the mag release button, let the empty mag fall on the floor, and insert a loaded magazine.
He said we should not be playing with magazines during an emergency.
I think that's what you were saying.
I just could never do that, because of the magazine getting all banged up, full of sand and dirt, etc.
But then, I'm not in law enforcement or military.
Bill
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I also thought that Wolf made the mag springs for the r9, so I emailed them and the reply that I received said that they did not. Maybe someone could get a reply from Karl himself as to who makes the springs for our pup. As for the Wilson mags I have the same ones that I started shooting IPSC with 14 years ago. I rebuild the mags about once a year, I can't even begin to estimate how many times they have been dropped, stepped on and down right abused. I know some guns will not run with them but for me they have been perfectly reliable.
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Rooster,
Do you remember what model of Wilson magazines you have?
Also, when you rebuild, is it just a matter of replacing the springs?
Bill
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I have the 8 rounders, I beleive the model number is 47d, when you buy the kits from Wilson they come with the follower and spring. The supposedly best for the 5" 1911 is the 7 rounders although I don't own any because I need the extra round for IPSC.
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Hi Bill,
The worst damage I ever did to a magazine happened to a Kel-Tec P-32 magazine that fell on the floor, out of a pocket holster that had a spare magazine pouch. The pocket holster's magazine pouch had become excessively loose with wear. The magazine was fully loaded, and the weight of the bullets caused it to fall feed lips first. The feed lips were bent badly.
I now use better quality pocket holsters.
Normally when I hit the slide release and let the empty magazine drop, the base plate hits the ground first. The feed lips are a bit safer this way, but repeatedly doing it does risk damage to magazines. The way I see it, sacrificing a few magazines is worth it to develop a fast reload that could save my life.
As far as dirt is concerned, when I rotate my magazines, I clean the ones I am about to load and put in the gun.
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Bill,
I really prefer your technique. That's the only reasonable way.
Unfortunately, I have to practice when we go to northern Michigan in a National Forest area.
The ground is very sandy so each dropping mag would be slightly submerged in sand. I would need a vacuum cleaner to reload the magazine. :)
It's fun to once again own a 1911 pistol. I had forgot how comfortable they fit in your hand. It's no wonder they remain popular to this day.
On the subject of "cocked and locked", at least it seems much safer than the light trigger of a Glock.
Bill
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Hi Bill,
I do appreciate where you are coming from re: sand. If I am at a shooting range with a table in front of me, I drop the magazine on the table rather than the floor. Dropping the magazine seems to be the least critical part of a quick reload. Inserting the new magazine is more complex.
I like and carry both 1911's and Glocks. More often than not, it is a Glock for the rock-solid reliability and because my 1911 is full-size while my Glocks are compact and subcompact. However, the 1911 is definitely the easier gun to shoot well. I totally agree with you about the safety issue: more has to go wrong for a cocked and locked 1911 to discharge than for a Glock to discharge.
Here's another thing to consider re: safety:
Part of my wife's family is from Indiana, and to get there I cross Ohio. There, the law requires plain sight carry in a car, and I have been reading of cases of LEO's taking possession of the guns during traffic stops (they return them after the stop is over, as required by law). With a Glock, there is a 2 in 3 chance that the LEO who takes the gun has been trained to use that brand as their duty weapon. I'd hate for an LEO who isn't trained on 1911's to decide that he needs to "decock" the 1911. This, however, is probably only an issue in this unique circumstance.
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Bill,
I enjoyed my Glock 36 .45 Auto, but got too concerned about the light trigger. I even had a NY-1 trigger installed.
I read terrific books, watched videos, and knew that it would not discharge unless the trigger was pulled. It is a terrific system which deserves to be the most popular gun for law enforcement, the Glock 22 .40 S&W.
Finally, I traded for a Bushmaster AR-15 rifle.
I'm going into Ohio with my wife to some big antique show, so will finally have to face up to studying the Ohio requirements. I carry a HK USPc .45 on the belt with a Milt Sparks 55BN.
Maybe the shirt can be tucked in during travel, and then be untucked when out of the car.
Otherwise, I'll just lock it up.
Bill
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Hi Bill,
So far, my solution in Ohio has been to lock up the gun in the glove box. My wife and I both have keys to both cars, and the passenger can always get it unlocked quickly if needed. Carrying into a rest stop is not allowed. So, if carrying in plain sight, you get to hope no one sees you take the gun off and then breaks into your car.
My understanding is that on the right hip is not plain sight while driving. Something like this might be better:
http://www.action-direct.com/model10.html
I haven't tried it myself yet but this would be my choice for the open carry rule.
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I recall the army USE TO advise their soldiers to load their M16s to only 80% of capacity (16 rounds in a 20 round mag) and when they did that, most failures were eliminated. The army no longer advises this but it sure as heck doesn't hurt ...
... I'd rather be a few rounds short than have the entire mag fail on me.
I don't doubt that is what the army used to or even currently tells its soldiers. After all, M16 mags are made and supplied by the lowest bidder.
BUT, regardless of what Wolf's site says, a quality magazine spring can stay compressed in a fully loaded magazine your entire life, and your heirs can put it in their gun the day after you are buried and it will function flawlessly. Thats just plain and simple metallurgy that's easy to verify.
Now, it's true that there are springs made by companies that take short cuts, but there are also springs that are made with quality materials and techniques. For what a R-9 costs, it better damn well have quality springs.
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Bill,
I'll just have to leave my pistol at home.
I was planning on a belt holster on the right hip.
I can't imagine why they prohibit carry at rest stops. I hope they get that cleared up someday. The whole thing seems kind of dorky. At least, they can carry sometimes. Better than nothing, but I'll skip it.
Thanks for the heads-up on this.
Bill
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You guys might find this helpful. Go to www.gunlaws.com and get the travelers guide to the 50 states. It has a lot of info and it is pretty cheap.
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Thanks, Rooster.
Here's the link made hot:
http://www.gunlaws.com/travel.htm
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Thanks Richard S, I am not computer savy.
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regardless of what Wolf's site says, a quality magazine spring can stay compressed in a fully loaded magazine your entire life, and your heirs can put it in their gun the day after you are buried and it will function flawlessly. Thats just plain and simple metallurgy that's easy to verify.
How can it be verified? I know that I can prove to you that when compressed for a long period of time, a spring will take a set. I've seen it happen with Para mags, S&W mags, etc.
Your reply is that they were low quality springs. Fine. And they may have been.
How can you VERIFY the opposite? How can you PROVE that "a quality magazine spring can stay compressed in a fully loaded magazine your entire life, and your heirs can put it in their gun the day after you are buried and it will function flawlessly." ?
I'm not looking to argue with you but I am interested in this because IF you are correct, you can save me a LOT of alternating of a LOT of mags every three months.
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Unless I am mistaken, the two leading manufacturers of gun springs in the country today are probably Wolff and ISMI. Here are links to their web sites which contain comment on the subject of spring durability and replacement:
http://www.gunsprings.com/Resources/FAQ.htm#5
http://www.ismi-gunsprings.com/faq.html
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Richard,
After reading that, I'll be rotating my carry magazines maybe each six months. No sense taking a chance.
Bill
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Bill:
Twice a year, when the time changes, I use the event as a reminder to change not only my clocks and watches but also the magazines of my semiautomtic weapons and the batteries of my gun safe and my smoke alarms. It's just a ritual I've adopted to cut down on the number of things I need to remember. (Now, if I can just manage always to remember my wife's birthday and our wedding anniversary, I should be good to go. ;) )
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I had a friend who called it his wife's anniversary--at least
that was his story to me.
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When I arrived home today my mag springs had arrived, so I took one of my r9 mags apart and compared springs. The spring that has been loaded and unloaded ( I swap mags about every month) was one and a half coils shorter than my new spring. Now this is probably not enough to make a difference and I am not going to change at this point, but now, at least, I have spares and can change when I think it is needed. I remember reading a little about the metalurgy of springs in some mag a few years ago and it seems that the springs have "memory" and are able to work for years. It seems that single column springs are a little better at it than the double column style. It was noted that someone found an old gi 45 that had it mag loaded for like 50 years took it out and it functioned perfectly. The whole intent of this post was the fact that I could not get a spring from the manufacturer and now they did right and actually went out of their way to get them for me. This topic has been very interesting.
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When I arrived home today my mag springs had arrived, so I took one of my r9 mags apart and compared springs. The spring that has been loaded and unloaded ( I swap mags about every month) was one and a half coils shorter than my new spring. Now this is probably not enough to make a difference and I am not going to change at this point, but now, at least, I have spares and can change when I think it is needed. I remember reading a little about the metalurgy of springs in some mag a few years ago and it seems that the springs have "memory" and are able to work for years. It seems that single column springs are a little better at it than the double column style. It was noted that someone found an old gi 45 that had it mag loaded for like 50 years took it out and it functioned perfectly. The whole intent of this post was the fact that I could not get a spring from the manufacturer and now they did right and actually went out of their way to get them for me. This topic has been very interesting.
Well,
Now you know that "everyone' will want spares/extras now!! ;) ;D
I don't on plan changing mine but I will be ordering at least a few to make sure I will not "run out" 8)
Brenden