The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: capt.koolaid on September 02, 2006, 06:57:09 PM
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Those of you who have read my previous posts know my results have been less than positive with my pup. Feeding problems, jams, etc. Richard and Tom have been especialy supportive allowing me to rant and offering constant support thru out. Im happy to say my pup has been fixed. Finaly! A good friend whos a Seecamp nut, backyard gunsmith, nice guy, and as far as im concerned GENIOUS, has cracked the code on this particular weapon.
I now take and offer the pepsi challenge to the fellas at the club with my pup. blazers, hydrashoks, goldensabers, all without a hitch, no hiccups, jams, or anything. Guys who "limpwristed" before have shot my pup with no problems and most importantly, I have total faith in it now and its my carry gun!
The solution to it is/was a bit technical, but ill try to describe it as best i can, so that those of you with similar problems may wanna try this remedy. It certainly worked for me.
Basicaly, it involved changing the floorplate on the magazines. For some reason, My pup must have been "out of spec" because the standard magazines evidently did not seat as far in as they should have. The replacement floorplates are a tad thicker, and as such the magazine seats deeper. I find it no more difficult to insert/seat the mags with these differant floorplates than I did with the factory ones but when removing the mags you can FEEL they are deeper and tell when racking the slide. The heel mag catch slides over the floorplates just fine, but thiers absolutely no play in the tolerance gap as before with the factory floorplate. Visibley comparing the floorplates the "new" ones are thicker, and thus, act as a "shim" to provide a deeper set when inserted in the mag well with the catch engaged and holding the mag in place. The magazine stays inserted, while firing, and after extensive testing seems to work BETTER than the factory model.
This "remedy" was discovered accidently when I decided I wanted a finger extension installed to provide a two finger grip on the gun. I knew this fella could possibly jerry rig such a contraption so I went to him and presented my problimatic pup. After a while he came up with an extension and asked if Id had reliability issues. I said boy howdy! He then explained the size/tollerance disparity/s and rattled off some measurements to me ( I have no idea what he meant) then gave me both mags, one with a extension, the other without but both had differant floorplates. My buds and I then enjoyed testing both mags without any malfunctions. We even failed to let the weapon cool on a couple occasions and the gun was pretty dirty. Well, sorry about the long post, My new found joy over the pup has spilled over! At anyrate, I apologize for no pics. I dont have the necessary equipment yet for posting them.
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Great news, Kool; where did he find the new floorplates?
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capt.koolaid,
Yeah, no kidding, this sounds very very interesting. Now ask your friend what he used in place of the stock floorplates. Your explanation was excellent and I could follow it easily. I never thought to try to shim the mag deeper to see the effects on jamming with R9S #1. On my R9S #1 there seems to be very, very little slop when the mag is inserted but I might be willing to try anything in order to expand the types of ammo that will function in this gun.
You can't leave us hanging on this one! Please let us know what your bud used in place of the stock magazine floorplates.
Mike
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+1 on the source of that replacement flloorplate. My R9S - a July 2005 build - has about zero "slop" between the heel release mechamism and the floor plates of the four mags I own. Since the floorplate is a stamping, it seems a thicker floorplate would position the mag's feed lips LOWER in relation to the barrel. (The thicker floorplate material wraps around, and would space the flange of the magazine itself lower whan compared to a thinner floorplate.)
Whether the mag is spaced deeper or shallower, if the modification worked for capt.koolaid, that's a good clue to making the pups more obedient.
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Very Interesting!
Chris (R9SCarry) - our Pup expert - how do you weigh in on this?
Would also like to know what Mag floor plates were used.
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Dave - I just checked for ''slop'' on my regular (the #2) pup and there is none. So a thicker floorplate would I suspect make engagement difficult or impossible.
For completeness - just went to safe to look at #1 gun - now there I see a miniscule amount of slop - guessing, maybe 3 to 5 thou - pretty slight.
But heck yes - the theory behind this has plenty of logic and I am more than interested to read your write-up Capt - it is most thought provoking. I shall be considering it further.
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I looked at all three of my magazines, the way the floorplate is designed (stamped) a different floor plate COULD allow the feed lips to sit higher. The only way I can see to do this (at midnight anyway) is to stamp a new floor plate and then weld an additional piece on where the catch engages.
If you look at your floor plates (While they are ON the mag) you can see that they could be reworked to allow the mags to seat deeper.
I just came up with another idea (AGAIN, it's MIDNIGHT). Redesigned floor plate and a new shorter length magazine catch.
PursuitSS (good night!)
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Capt, Very interesting will have to see what the Bros R think of this fix. Glad you are now as happy as the rest of us with your R-9. Dan
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For what it's worth, I had recently mailed my Farmindale R9 back to the factory due to some jammed issues. It came back with a noticible new magazine latch/release installed. It now takes MUCH MORE effort to release the magazine, which seems to sit a lot tighter into the gun.
I can't tell you what else they did to it, but it fires great so far.
Perhaps this is the same general issue with some problematic R9s out there.
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Sorry I didnt get the scoop on those floorplates when I picked up the gun. I honestly had no idea such a seemingly insignifigant mod would have made such a drastic improvement in reliability! To be honest, I had pretty much written my pup off as a lost cause. He did say if I wanted a few more he thought he could ablige. Unfortunatly as luck would have it the old geesers at the lake for the holiday so I wont see him again for a while.
Like most, im frustrated by what I dont understand and SSLATER has a good point, in theroy, if the floorplates are thicker one would think they would make the mag sit shallower NOT deeper although it definatly seems to be the opposite.
Rest assured I will interogate my elderly friend the minute he returns! Meanwhile, Im curious about this. Blue grips says one of his pups came home with a slightly differant mag catch and a few of you have stated one pup may have some play, the other none. This tells me maybe the old mans on to something here!
As far as the floorplates themselves, They appear to be a manufacture not home made. No welds are visible, and they are steel. They dont have the notch the factory models do for the tip of the mag catch to click inside, however they fit so tight in the gun and stay in place while fireing that I honestly dont think its needed although he did say he could mill out a portion for it if I wanted. ( im so damn thrilled with performance at this point i dont want a thing changed!). The mag catch slides over them just as the factory model, and to seat the mags all i do is push em in with my thumb until the catch slides over it. ( No hard slam home needed). About the only differance I can detect is that the mag seems to "hang" in the well, when the catch is pushed out, requiring a slight tug to remove, then dropping free. With the originals the mags didnt do this. Its almost as though the magazine tubes were swelled, yet I find no evidence of this and fit seems to be the same with the mags loaded or unloaded. Of course I retained the original floorplates and comparing them to the mods you can see the mods are considerably thicker. They look OLD and are built like a tank, with some blueing coating applied and are HEAVY! In addition, thier is some grooves applied on the finger rest model, ( Man I wish I could post pics!) and thier is a hole in the bottom for the subfloorplate post to lock in to.
Im gonna need more recoil springs since my last little torture test has put considerable miles on but it was worth it! I love this thing! Id be interested to see if others with problems would benefit by trying one of these mags. Guinnesdog what state you live in? O.K., enough for now I guess. Yet another longwinded post. Sorry guys.
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thicker floor plate would seat deeper...would push
mag further up into the weapon...as the mag catch is on butt of grip. This is a pure guess...imagine the backyard gunsmith made his own floor plate...a metter of using a feeler guage and mic to find the "slack" measurement...using metal stock
and a cutter, grinder, polisher, maybe a file and some good cold blue would probably get the job done...but, would be very interested in the particulars as this sounds like it would be a good modification for many of these guns...if all meet same dimensions as they should if as precise as stated. (and a precise gun with slop accessories is a diamond in a hogs nose)
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I've seen a number of posts on feeding issues...this could be
the best answer to the problem yet...this mag modification...in fact, it is one the company should consider...the old floorplate would make the template in all except thickness of the stock used and should be a relatively easy fix for the factory people, but do-able for any person handy with basic metalworking/gunsmithing tools...the magazines are always on the list of "usual suspects" with feeding problems and this is one of the first things I am going to check...
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I am still thinking on this project...easier perhaps than "making" a whole new mag floorplate might be to simply build and insert a shim on bottom of floor plate either inside (to push spring and follower up) or out (to thicken mag base under mag catch) whichever works best...and, if available install a stouter magazine spring...may be a matter of the magazine follower shape and how it presents the round to the feep ramp...hmm...all sorts of little possibilities other than to build a new floorplate. I am wondering is a combination of all of the above may be worth a try...if no improvement a new mag or putting it back like it was is always there.
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I beleive the mags would sit lower in the frame because the floorplate is "thicker", the edge of the floor plate rests against the frame so if it was thicker then the mag would be lower. On checking mine I have about three thousandths play. I have no issues so far but I have a buddy who is experiencing ftf's and this might be his solution. Can anyone be more specific about wheather the mag is higher or lower in the frame?
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My magazines sit higher/deeper in the well with the non factory floorplates. The magazines seem to be the "newer" design without the visible weld.
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Higher/deeper makes sense with the non-factory. That must
also create a tighter fit on the bottom latch. I wonder if there
is any increased magazine spring pressure to aid in the feed-
ing.
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Captain:
Thanks for your excellent report! My experience has been that most of the problems which occur with quality semi-automatics can be traced to faulty magazines. It's ironic that a beautiful $1,000 dollar pistol can be reduced to the efficacy of a rock by a faulty $35 magazine.
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Lets see if i have this higher lower thing correct. If there is a gap between the frame and the floorplate and you fill in the gap more than the thickness of the gap the mag would be lower in the frame, If you have the same gap and you add material at the bottom of the floorplate the same thickness as the gap then the mag would sit higher in the frame. So my question what was done to the pistol to make the gun run, make the mag sit higher or lower?
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I just reread the post more closely and the answer I beleive is that material was added to the bottom of the floorplate resulting in the mag to sit higher in the frame which makes more sense because now the bullet sits a little higher and hits the feed ramp at a better angle.
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Someone go and visit the Capt and take a picture to post.
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The old mans back from the lake. By the response from this post I figured Id pick his brain about this whole thing. Heres the skinny according to "old wise one":
The replacement floorplates were not "home made", at least by him. He removed them from magazines off of a Walther P-38. I did a google search among other things and the general consenus is they were never offered by Walther so someone, somewhere, put them on before the oldtimer got the gun in on a trade deal. I cant figure out WHY they were on thier as a Walther P-38s grip is certainly large enough without a finger extension unless.....maybe the original floorplates were lost/damaged? At anyrate, he had originals and swaped em out for the finger extensions per my original request because he "figured theyd fit".
After the first "transplant", he noted what he thought was excessive play between the magazine catch and the factory floorplate which, in his opinion could have induced reliability issues. When I returned and stated I wanted one of the mags to be "flush fit" he simply ground the extension down on one of the floorplates to facilitate this, and sugested I try it as well to see if thier was any improvements in reliability. Since this modification is easily reversed by simply re-installing the factory floorplates which obviously were retained I figured it couldnt hurt.
I explained to him since his floorplate modification my pup has had a significant increase in reliability. His response was a half grin, followed by a "thought so" remark. I asked him what the big deal was behind all this and basicaly he stated metalurgy, measurements, etc. can be fickle, but bottom line the mags do not move being "shimmed" in tighter, under recoil, thus providing a stable platform in an admittedly tight, high recoiling weapon, and do in fact sit HIGHER in the well, do to the floorplate flanges "thickness" allowing a tighter AND higher "rail" for the mag tubes grooves to slide in to.
He also stated that a more powerful spring, modified follower, etc. may improve performance but that this was in his (and my) opinion the best alternative considering warranty, availability of aftermarket springs, etc. As such, the springs, followers, and subfloorplate in my mags are factory original, the only modification being the exterior floorplates themselves.
I too, am curious what Bros R would think of this. Does anybody have any pull with them to maybe drop em a line?
Please note I do not claim to have found the dali lamma here, nor am I trying to promote "snake-oil". Those that have had reliability issues may benefit from an attempt at "shimming" up the mag, as has been stated, folks in the know with feeler gauges, etc. could easily duplicate this. I do know the old man used a Micrometer to "mic" the tollerance disparity but he also said without looking at proprietary blueprints from the factory, each particular pup could have signifigant tolerance disparitys making an exact "recipe" for future floorplates a tricky liability prone difficulty although I did secure more of them, "just in case" I need em for a new STEALTH!
This post is getting long so I better cut it short. I have a camera phone, so if anyone REALY wants pics, I could take them an e-mail them to you. Im sorry I dont understand the whole posting pics process, (maybe someone could do it from thier e-mail?)
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This post is getting long so I better cut it short. I have a camera phone, so if anyone REALY wants pics, I could take them an e-mail them to you. Im sorry I dont understand the whole posting pics process, (maybe someone could do it from thier e-mail?)
Capt., please email the pictures to me and I will post them for you.
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Pics sure would be handy - some sort of side by side comparison and even too if possible some caliper measurements comparing std floor plate with modified.
I know Eric R pretty well and he does try and come in to read here when he can so - chances are he may have seen this thread already. If when I next speak to him he has not been aware of it, I'll mention it.
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capt.koolaid,
So as I understand it even the flush fitting floorplate is a ground off version of the finger extension mags for a P-38 that your friend has no idea where they came from. So it doesn't look like we could just get a couple of these floorplates and play with them because no one really knows what the heck they are. darn the luck.
Mike
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riffraff, check your pm :)
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Ill take some shots via the camera phone and e-mail em to Bluegrips ( thanks!) unfortunatly I dont have calipres, mics, etc. as I wouldnt know how to use em anyway! I have secured more floorplates so thiers some extras out to playwith. Anything I can do to help with reliabilty issues Id be glad to do because I know first hand how frustrating a problematic pup can be.
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As received from capt.koolaid:
(http://rcfalcon.com/stuff/Rohrbaugh/r9plate/1.jpg)(http://rcfalcon.com/stuff/Rohrbaugh/r9plate/2.jpg)
(http://rcfalcon.com/stuff/Rohrbaugh/r9plate/3.jpg)(http://rcfalcon.com/stuff/Rohrbaugh/r9plate/4.jpg)
(http://rcfalcon.com/stuff/Rohrbaugh/r9plate/5.jpg)(http://rcfalcon.com/stuff/Rohrbaugh/r9plate/6.jpg)
(http://rcfalcon.com/stuff/Rohrbaugh/r9plate/7.jpg)(http://rcfalcon.com/stuff/Rohrbaugh/r9plate/8.jpg)
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I wonder if the slide catch could be adjusted (tweaked) instead of installing a new floor plate on the bottom of the magazine. Any thoughts?
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Sorry bout the quality of the pics, Phone cameras dont focus well up close. Thanks for posting Blue grips!
As you can see the black floorplates a tad thicker, and for some reason, even with the mag catch held open, the mag stays in place, not poping out. If inverted, the mag would not drop free but would need to be tugged on a very slight amount before the mag would jettison. With factory floorplates the mag slides out the minute the catch is moved...odd???????
Also note the factory floorplate "turns up" in the front area were the non-factory is flat.
Id be leary of modifiying ANYTHING on the gun itself due to the already tight tollerances and possible warranty compromise. With this mod, all you need to do is change out the floorplate,....compltetely reversable. Thiers a gunshow coming up so im gonna be on the lookout for similar floorplate "matchs" on singlestack 9mms for consideration. I do think modifying the factory floorplate is possible and would be a minimal task as if a replacement were needed, its only one removable part.
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capt.koolaid: no sweat. I tried to enlarge & brighten them up but with such low resolution, this is all I can do.
(http://rcfalcon.com/stuff/Rohrbaugh/r9plate/11.jpg)(http://rcfalcon.com/stuff/Rohrbaugh/r9plate/12.jpg)
(http://rcfalcon.com/stuff/Rohrbaugh/r9plate/13.jpg)(http://rcfalcon.com/stuff/Rohrbaugh/r9plate/14.jpg)
(http://rcfalcon.com/stuff/Rohrbaugh/r9plate/15.jpg)(http://rcfalcon.com/stuff/Rohrbaugh/r9plate/16.jpg)
(http://rcfalcon.com/stuff/Rohrbaugh/r9plate/17.jpg)(http://rcfalcon.com/stuff/Rohrbaugh/r9plate/18.jpg)
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BlueGrips:
Excellent work! Thank you.
If you can do that with a low resolution cellular telephone image digitally transmitted three times (first to you, next to the server of an Internet photograph host, and then to the server of the Forum, I'm beginning to think that you need to discuss career opportunities with a certain organization which has been near and dear to my heart for many years -- unless, or course, such discussion has already occurred. (No response is expected. 8) )
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All four of my magazines fit correctly into the magazine well. The magazine catch holds them tightly and I have no play (btw-my gun has zero failures). I have not disassembled the magazine catch, but I see it is held in place with a pin. I am wondering of some of these catches were manufactured incorrectly or the magazine manufactured incorrectly. If someone is having trouble I strongly recommend them shimming between the magazine catch and the magazine floor plate. One could use a cut off piece of feeler gauge taped in place for testing. I could see this causing issues. If this would fix your pistol I think returning it to the factory for warranty repair along with a note explaining your findings may work. However if you do not have a warranty for your pistol it would not be hard to modify the existing catch or magazine to fix this. Then again maybe I am polluted and missing the whole point. Is this what you all are surmising?
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From what I see, with factory floorplates, A small amount of play between the magazine floorplate and the grip is necessary to push the magazine further in to move the retaining catch out of the way due to a small lip on the edge of the catch witch fits in to a groove in the floorplate. However, it seems on SOME R-9s, this "play" is excessive in that feed/jam problems and at least two (2) accidental mag jettisons have occured as noted on this forum. With the mod, absolutely no play is noted, nor is thier a machined groove for the "lip" of the catch to sit in.
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Did anyone ever run this b Eric or Karl?
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I know this is a LONG dead thread, but from the experience I had with my R9 I feel this might have been a "fix"!
If you look at the back of your R9 Magazine & Floorplate you will see that the floorplate fits on somewhat like this: /_______\ instead of being stamped like this: [______] the angled sides of the floorplate hinder it being raised higher in the mag well.
Now the thought is that IF you had a floorplate that fit tight against the "rails" on each side of the magazine, that would allow the magazine to be pushed higher in to the mag well. You would have to have a pad on the bottom of the floorplate so it would ride higher.
Almost all of the problems I had seemed to be from too steep of angle for the round to enter the chamber.
Thoughts?
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Mine with curved mag extensions have a small amount of play, making ejection of the empty mag possible. I have no problems with feeding...my Covert was rebuilt by Karl last year...has something been done at the factory that addressed this issue (I found no response from KR in this thread but assume he was aware of the issue back in 2006)?