The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: riffraff on September 24, 2006, 02:58:42 PM
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Hello All,
Mike here and I went to the range today. Below is the ONLY ammo that functions 100% reliably and DOES NOT keyhole in both of my R9S's.
Winchester Super Clean NT 105GR JSP, Jacketed Soft Point
SC9NT
Winchester WinClean 115GR BEB, Brass Enclosed Base
Fiocchi 9mm Leadless 100GR TCCEB Truncated Cone Enclosed Base
None of these loads are designated a "self defense" load. This does not worry me at all as I used to carry FMJ's in my 32 carry guns. I prefer something that will penetrate glass or maybe a car door over something that will mushroom. With the short barrel of the R9 and low velocities that this must present I am satisfied with any of the above loads for my self defense. I now carry my R9S's as my personal defense arms and feel secure that they will function every time if they are ever needed.
I will chrono these loads from my R9S's and post results eventually.
Since I now have reliable ammo I have decided not to try the P-38 mag floorplates or do any other dremel work or anything else to my R9's.
I am now 100% satistied with my Rohrbaugh's. For some the ammo limitations might be unaceptable. To each his own.
I hope this information helps anyone out there.
Mike
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I am really suprised there have not been some remarks on this post!? I posted some opinions that I thought for sure would draw some other opinions.
Mike
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I am now 100% satistied with my Rohrbaugh's. For some the ammo limitations might be unaceptable. To each his own.
Well I was going to comment, but when I saw this I felt that you were saying you were no tlooking for comments. If you want comments, though, I'm happy to offer mine.
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Anyone, feel free to post your opinions.
Mike
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Mike,
I would feel much better using one of the popular, premium ammos in JHP.
I would accept nothing less than Golden Saber, Hydra-Shok, Gold Dot, or Silvertips.
I recognize that it's a pain to return a firearm to the factory, and expensive, but I would have no other choice.
Bill
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Since you asked, I would not be happy with the situation you describe. If my R9s didn't work 100% reliably with a good, modern design JHP I would not consider this acceptable. There are specifications for ammo and my firm belief is that a quality pistol should reliably feed and fire any ammo that is in spec.
Also, some ammo is based upon old technology and is out performed by more recent design. Sadly, for me, this excludes Federal Hydra Shok, Hi Shok, and even the favored Winchester Silvertips. Those rounds use old technology non-bonded bullets.
I do like Speer GDHP and Winchester RA9T, which are both outstanding rounds. I carry RA9T because in lab tests is penetrates as well as +P ammo but is standard pressure.
Finally, I think it is a mistake to carry ball ammo for self-defense. For a .32 I do it because JHP won’t penetrate well enough and ball ammo is unlikely to exit. 9mm is a different story. Ammo like Federal Tactical will expand reliably and so is unlikely to exit a body, but will still penetrate barriers. Ball ammo will only make a very narrow wound track. If it misses a vital organ then the attacker won’t be seriously injured (although the psychological effect of being shot may stop him). Plus, you risk that it will exit and hit whatever is behind the target.
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Good points.
There is one point I might contest. With the short barrel of the R9, it is my opinion that OVERPENETRATION or in other words a round from the R9 going thru a torso and injuring an innocent, is not a reasonable plausability, even with FMJ's. Get real people.
On another point. I have come to the opinion that returning my R9's to the factory WILL NOT guarantee that I get back guns that will feed everything.
When I first heard about the R9 I went to a shop that had one in stock. I had no intention of buying one I just wanted to check them out. I knew full well that buying a gun like the R9 in it's first few years of production was a VERY BAD idea. I knew that a few more years would be needed for the gun to be perfected. The gun the shop had was an engraved model and was 4K. I was not going to buy it but it gave me the opportunity to handle it and most important try the trigger. After that I could not wait. I got one and then another. The smart thing to do would have been to wait a few years untill it was perfected but as you know I could not.
It is my opinion that the R9 has some kind of defect either in it's design or in the manufacturing process. Since some R9's seem to function great with GDHP's and Silvertips and many others DO NOT I will say that there must be some lack of repeatability in the manufacturing process. What other possibility could their be? I do not want to hear any crap about it's the shooter and there is something about his hold or technique, etc., etc. Any speculation along that line is total Bullshit.(pardon my French)
Anyway, everything is pretty much moot. I own 2, I like them and I am satisfied with the ammo that they require to function properly. I am not sending them back unless I find some slide cracks(heaven forbid) or something else just breaks.
Any comments will be read and appreciated, this is what messageboards are for.
Mike
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Mike,
I also agree something is wrong if your pistol will not shoot the usual premium ammo selections.
If we had some kind of breakdown in civil order, with reduced access to ammunition, I would want my pistol to shoot common, everyday ammo.
Sadly, the rounds that work for you are, I think, not the usual stuff you will encounter.
Bill
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Mike,
Sorry, I must have missed something; what was your
experience with GDHP?
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If memory serves, His pup didnt like Goldots....or ANY hollowpoints for that matter except aguilas 65 grainers. At the risk of getting flamed, Im with Mike (sorry, I mean riffraff) on this. Id rather have 7 forsures than 1 or 2 maybes. If it doesnt feed jhps 100% then go with the ball. I am curious though, what happend with the Aguilas? Before I fixed my pup with the floorplate mod, I tryed to get some Aguilas but nobody around here carrys them. Of course I also got the "you dont want Mexican ammo, thats too light a grain," etc.
Its been my expieriance Remingtons plain old OLD TECHNOLOGY 115 grain JHPs will feed in just about ANYTHING. Odds are if they dont work, Nothing will. But the Rohrbaughs a differant story alltogether. I use the Winchester SXT 147 grain L.E.O. jhp In my pup. Golddots, Silvertips, and Golden Sabres being a tie for second place.
I agree 110 percent that Vicarious liability is an issue and no one wants a bullet exiting a badguy and hitting an innocent....Thats a given forsure. On the flip side, a FMJ bullet if it does enter and exit will leave two (2) holes to bleed from, and even the best hollowpoints fail to expand when cavitys are clogged or adequete velocity is not achieved. In addition, often a bullet will take paths other than thru and thru when introduced in to the complex pleathra of various elasticitys, water content, etc that make up a humanoid bipedel media.
If My pup were still problematic in reliability as riffraffs seem to be, than id carry WHATEVER ammo worked. Its a defense gun, NOT a target pistol, so God-forbid its needed but if it is...God be with you!
Sending a pup back to the factory is a great idea, but realisticly, it seems MANY have done so, only to have the pistol remain problematic. Guinness sent his back twice at least and what ever happend with that?
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Id rather have 7 forsures than 1 or 2 maybes.
I have no issue woith that. My point is that the 7 JHP rounds should all be "for sures."
Its been my expieriance Remingtons plain old OLD TECHNOLOGY 115 grain JHPs will feed in just about ANYTHING. Odds are if they dont work, Nothing will.
Non-bonded bullets are an issue when they hit their target. This has nothing to do with how well they feed and ignite.
I agree 110 percent that Vicarious liability is an issue and no one wants a bullet exiting a badguy and hitting an innocent....Thats a given forsure. On the flip side, a FMJ bullet if it does enter and exit will leave two (2) holes to bleed from, and even the best hollowpoints fail to expand when cavitys are clogged or adequete velocity is not achieved. In addition, often a bullet will take paths other than thru and thru when introduced in to the complex pleathra of various elasticitys, water content, etc that make up a humanoid bipedel media.
To heck with legal liability, how about moral liability?
It's true a JHP round may not always expand. Bur a FMJ round is guaranteed never to expand. The R9s barrel is plenty long enough.
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If My pup were still problematic in reliability as riffraffs seem to be, than id carry WHATEVER ammo worked. Its a defense gun, NOT a target pistol, so God-forbid its needed but if it is...God be with you!
Right, it's a defense pistol. If my pup worked like that one, I would not carry it.
Sending a pup back to the factory is a great idea, but realisticly, it seems MANY have done so, only to have the pistol remain problematic. Guinness sent his back twice at least and what ever happend with that?
This does not bode well for the R9s.
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capt.koolaid,
jarcher is a bit hard to follow as his posts are full of snippets of other posts, but anyway to answer the one question in your last post that I actually can answer. The Aguila 65gr HP functioned perfectly in both my R9S's but in both guns they keyholed everytime at 15 yds. Now that I have other ammo that functions perfectly and does not keyhole I will shoot the Aguila in my other 9's through which it does not keyhole.
On the topic of if the S.H.T.F. and the specific ammo required for my R9's is not available. That is not a problem because in that scenario I will be using much more capeable handguns and other guns than the R9!!!!
Neither of my 2 R9S's liked the Gold Dots.
If their is any other info. that was asked about and I missed just post again.
Mike
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Groo here
I had a long talk with Mr. K
He was the one that told me about the win nts
Dont over look the fact that that the r9 is a last ditch
tool and it must work for a mag.
after that all bets are off.
First the gun must go bang
it must hit the targed and in the correct spot
and it must geed into the hart of the problem.
after that everything else is up in the air.
and doint forget that the english made shellls
that would tumble in the 1800s
self defence is a close range problem
once something operates, leave things alone.
If you want 100 percent use a knife and they break sonetimes
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I have no issue woith that. My point is that the 7 JHP rounds should all be "for sures." Yes idealisticly. But....Thats not the case here.
Non-bonded bullets are an issue when they hit their target. This has nothing to do with how well they feed and ignite. O.K., well based on the tests conducted that Ive seen, the Remingtons performance is superior to fmj ball in expansion "excersises" so if the hollowpoint is wanted/needed, thses often feed where others dont. This holds true in other calibres as well.
To heck with legal liability, how about moral liability? All great points up this part. Here ya lost me. Someones immoral if they carry fmj instead of hollowpoints because it may injure an innocent? Im not clear on this remark.
It's true a JHP round may not always expand. Bur a FMJ round is guaranteed never to expand. The R9s barrel is plenty long enough.Right, it's a defense pistol. If my pup worked like that one, I would not carry it. Niether would I IF (and that word cant be overstated here) I had another weapon easily concealable of sufficiant calibre. Its possible this is the only pocket size pistol for many.
This does not bode well for the R9s. I couldnt agree more
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Since I now have reliable ammo I have decided not to try the P-38 mag floorplates or do any other dremel work or anything else to my R9's.
>>Hi Riff...
What's the deal with using P-38 mag floorplates in an R9...? I poked around the forum looking for details about this but found nothing - can you please provide me with a link to this discussion or elaborate here...?? Thanks muchly...!...TW<<
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>>Hi Riff...
What's the deal with using P-38 mag floorplates in an R9...? I poked around the forum looking for details about this but found nothing - can you please provide me with a link to this discussion or elaborate here...?? Thanks muchly...!...TW<<
http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/YaBB.cgi?board=Gunsmith;action=display;num=1158360415
PursuitSS
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Bump to top.
Mike
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Thanks for bringing this back to the top.
9mm has a generally good track record with JHP ammo, but a generally poor track record with FMJ. 9mm is carried by the police in Wash. DC, NYC, and Phila., and they are all apparently quite happy with it. However, everyone in our military who can get their hands on one is choosing to carry a .45.
For me, the gun has to function 100% with at least one readily available JHP. Otherwise, the gun has no advantage over my North American Arms .380.
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BillinPittsburgh,
I agree with your last statement. For you this is correct.
Even though both my R9's currently won't reliably feed a JHP the advantages of the R9(for me) is that I have been able to reduce the number of ammo calibers for my guns, have trimmed my pistol collection down some and most importantly the R9 is just ergonomically far superior to the NAA or Seacamp in my opinion.
I have not been to the range in a while. I still have a couple of Winchester loads to try and I still want to chrono some loads from the R9. I have a feeling the fps readings are going to be pretty low.
Mike
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Mike - in case you hadn't previously seen this page of mine - go look at R9 ammo Data Page (http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/data/R9-ammo-data.htm).
My samples were usually quite small but still - there is some comparison over quite a wide selection of ammo, from my testing sessions.
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Thanks Chris,
I do now remember seeing that data a long time ago. I am impressed as the velocities are higher than I expected.
I hope the loads that work in my guns chrono at a decent velocity.
Mike
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Riff Raff,
I have to say that I did appreciate the 'Lil article... I carried nothing but "Ball" ammo for several years & never thought twice about it & that because (1) that's what we were authorized, & (2) being that I am of the belief that when the "B.G." is hit with either a solid projectile or a Hollow Point, they are certainly gonna wanna STOP gettin' hit with either one..!
I will also say like you stated; "To each his own..." But, now that I have choices; I expect to absolutely be able to confidently use modern "HP" ammo w/ o a hiccup, but if necessary for correct function I would have no qualms about carrying "Ball" ammo as well, just a preferance toward HP's..!
I had hoped to have time already to give my returned R9s a work out, but still have not made the time...
Thanks for the read...
E!