The Rohrbaugh Forum

Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: wiles on March 06, 2006, 12:37:01 AM

Title: Range Report part 1
Post by: wiles on March 06, 2006, 12:37:01 AM

I bought a new R-9s a couple of weeks ago and had my third visit to the range today. After my first box of ammo, I was a little concerned about reliability, but willing to feed it another hundred rounds to break it in and give it a fair chance. After my second visit to the range, I was convinced it wasn't just my grip, and even more frustrated with the reliability of the pistol. Now after my third time out I'm absolutely furious about the performance -- and a little shaken from the SLAM FIRE that scared the $&@% out of me.

So, to start at the beginning, I picked up the R-9s because reviews of the Kel-Tecs were so mixed and because I wasn't impressed enough by the Kahr PM9 to make up for the extra size. I really love the trigger on the R-9 and it seems to be a very well made pistol that nestles nicely into my hand. Of course, the proof is in the pudding, so I took it to the range.

My first time out was with a box of 100 115 grain Winchester white box FMJ. I've never had a problem feeding WWB in .45 to 1911s and figured hard ball would be the best bet for breaking in this gun since I had heard that it might be a little on the picky side. Being the cautious type, I loaded a single round into the magazine and gave it a shot. WOW! Didn't I read somewhere that the designer was an orthopedic surgeon? Trying to break a few hands to drum up business for his industry? Seriously though, I had done my research and expected the kick and really didn't mind it that much. I've got a good grip and wasn't too worried about controlling the pistol. I proceeded to run 14 6 round magazines through it, then maxed it out for 2 6+1 runs, then sent the lonely 100th bullet to catch up with his friends. I'm more used to a single action 1911, so I had to take my time to adapt to the longer trigger, but again, that was to be expected and something I definitely don't consider to be a problem for a pocket gun. When I squeezed the shots off slowly, I easily hit the IDPA target center at 7 yards. The couple of times that I tried to pick up the pace a little I often shot low and to the left -- but this again was my fault, not the gun's.

The first 3 full magazines shot without a hitch, but then the very first round in the 4th magazine failed to eject. I fed it two more good magazines, then the 5th and 6th rounds in the next magazine double fed in an interesting manner -- both were pointing straight up out of the magazine through the chamber. I worked them loose, reloaded them, and fired them off. One more failure-free magazine then another failure to feed the fourth round in the 9th full magazine. This time it was just one bullet peeking up at me through the ejection port. Four more flawless magazines then a failure in the third round of the final 6 round mag. Then, with the last two magazines, loaded all 6+1 into the gun and both times the very first round failed to eject... and the fourth round in the final full mag failed to feed. This put the tally up to 4 FTFs and 4 FTEs out of 100 rounds. 92% is definitely not great, but not horrible either considering I had been expecting some kinks in the breaking in process. Half of the problems were in the final quarter of the test, which could lead one to blame them on the expected fickleness of a hot, tight, and dirty gun.

Title: Range Report part 2
Post by: wiles on March 06, 2006, 12:38:08 AM

I took it home and had the expected adventure of popping that pin out. It had come out nicely immediately after purchasing the gun, but now that it was dirty it was a real wrestling match. Cleaned it up and lubed it as instructed.  Was happy to find another use for my small vise-grip locking pliers in getting the spring compressed just right.  Definitely no more hassle than I'm willing to deal with.

My second trip to the range started to open my eyes a little. I had a gunsmith friend and two firearms instructors eagerly try out the Rohrbaugh. Even after I warned them about the kick and the bite and the sensitivity to limp-wristing, two of them got a FTE and the third tester got two FTEs. I was happy to know it wasn't just me. But I was quite unhappy to realize that 4 FTEs in the first 18 rounds wasn't a very good start. I'm not likely to carry a pistol with a 22% failure rate in its first three magazines. So to shorten a long story just a bit, the second box had a total of 12 failures at rounds 3, 8, 15, 16, 28, 30, 47, 49, 71, 73, 79, and 98. 7 ofthese were failures to eject and 5 were failures to feed. This time 2/3rds of the failures were in the first half of the test, so less blame can be placed on dirt.  

How many rounds does it take to break this thing in?  For a gun that's geared toward practical carry and not weekly pleasure shooting, how many rounds is too many?  Where is the line between broken in and simply broken?  At this point I was pretty disappointed, but still optimistic enough to order a couple of expensive holsters for the gun and locate some grip tape to help tame the gun some so I could attempt some more somewhat-rapid fire exercises. All this in the hopes that the gun would either straighten itself out in the third trip to the range or as a last resort it might run nicer after a trip to its maker for some tweaks.

So my third trip to the range started out nicely. I filled the chamber plus the magazine and realized in just a couple of rounds that the grip tape really does help. But then, to my surprise, I got a double burp on rounds 6 and 7. I was a little amazed -- this hadn't happened to me with any gun before. Definitely one squeeze and two bullets. After counting the holes on the target I concluded that the seventh round definitely missed the paper but probably wasn't much more than one or two feet high at seven yards. I definitely didn't shoot the ceiling or the range lights. I probably should have set the gun down then and shipped it back to Rohrbaugh, but I suppose I was still in a state of disbelief. I pulled back the slide, noted that the firing pin wasn't protruding and nothing seemed to be gummed up. I loaded only 2 rounds into a magazine, popped it into the handle, and carefully chambered a round. Nothing unusual happened so I carefully fired the first round. Nothing. Then the second. Nothing. So I got even stupider and loaded 6 rounds into a magazine and popped it in. The first 4 rounds were very carefully squeezed off with no problem, then the 5th and 6th rounds left the gun in full auto. At this point I got smart and called it a day. While a few of the crazier fellows I know would love to have a full-auto "even cooler than a Glock 18" pocket pistol, lack of control definitely isn't my style. Maybe if I aim the first round at an attacker's feet, the full-auto kick might place the 7th round square between the eyes.  Maybe not.  This has got to be fixed. When I stripped the gun at home, I noted that the pin wasn't gummed up with grease or any of the usual suspects for causing slam fire. I really didn't want to disassemble it even further to inspect the sear, so I plan to leave the gun exactly as it is, dirt and all, and ship it back for inspection. As much as it has disappointed and scared me, I really do love the craftsmanship of the gun and would still love to have one that works correctly. I've heard tales of misbehaving guns being shipped back to their builders for some TLC to be returned to their owners completely reborn.  I'm still holding out hope that I'll experience some nice customer service and end up thrilled and happy with this gun.  But if I can't get a gun that is reliable AND SAFE for $1000, my second choice would be a refund.

Title: Re: Range Report part 1
Post by: Michigunner on March 06, 2006, 09:34:59 AM

wiles,

Welcome to the forum.  I'm sorry that you got off to a bad start.

I've been around the board for a long time now, and see that most folks have no problems.

Unfortunately, there is a report sometimes like yours.  If it does not clear up right away, I know the factory will fix it right away.

Bill

Title: Re: Range Report part 1
Post by: theirishguard on March 06, 2006, 10:27:25 AM

wiles, welcome to the forum. My thoughts are this: why not try and shoot Speer Gold Dot, Federal or Winchester silver tips?
Also you shot alot of ammo in one session, which makes the gun dirty and your hand sore. The full auto part should be addressed by the factory. Send it back and it will be taken care of.
Tom

Title: Re: Range Report part 1 & 2
Post by: GSlinger on March 24, 2006, 12:41:17 PM

Let me start off by saying that I have had my gun now for over a year with no hicups...  I have a couple of buddies who told me about this post on the forum and couldn't resist to reply.  There were a couple of things that I read in your post that concerned me.  You mentioned putting through 3 full magazines without a hitch (will you need more than that in an emergency!!!).  Anyway you go on to talk about putting 100's of rounds through it.  This gun was just not made for that.  The tollerances are tight and the dirt and the heating up of the metals probably caused your failures which you had even mentioned yourself.  Part two:  you talk about at first the pin popping out easily but after your shoot out at the OK corral it was so dirty you had a wrestling match to get it out, again dirty gun failures not a surprise.  I'm not trying to start any fires just maybe put some out because of my success with the gun, but it sounds like you are diagnosing your own problem.  Call the factory ... I have had some questions and ordered accessories and as you say expierienced some nice customer service.  I was even lucky enough to talk to the Man himself Mr. Rohrbaugh which by the way is not a ortho surgeon.  He is a straight up guy which is why I say give them a call.....  As the guard said sorry you got off to such a bad start...

Title: Re: Range Report part 1
Post by: wiles on March 24, 2006, 03:48:41 PM

I've gotten quite a few e-mails regarding this post, so instead of updating each of you individually, I figured it's time to send in a report.

Life got a little busy for a couple of weeks so it took me a while to call it in and box it up, but the pistol is now at the factory and I'm awaiting word on their diagnosis.  Service over the phone was very nice and left me with a positive first impression.

I'd like to thank all of you for your concern and well wishes.  I'll update this post when the issue gets resolved.

To address the follow-up posts:

1) ammo:  Yes!  I will definitely try feeding the pistol self-defense rounds!  I would never want to inadvertently harm a bystander with over-penetrating ammo.  Hardball is only for the range.  There are lots of good posts here about the best defense rounds to use, and I'll likely test feed several of them before choosing one to carry.  But I have to be confident in a pistol before I choose to carry it.  I've always used hardball for breaking in a new gun -- it usually feeds the best -- only after adequately breaking a pistol in do I start testing the hollow points.  If I'm completely mistaken in the case of breaking in the Rohrbaugh, somebody please post me upside the head with a clue-by-four.  Otherwise, I'll stick to my old habits that have worked best for me.  :-)

2) dirt:  Yes!  Right again!  If I ever need a fourth magazine to protect myself and my family then I've got an invading army chasing after me and I'll need prayer more than a working firearm.  I concede that every FTF and FTE after the first 18 rounds is not a fair test of a realistic scenario.  On my first trip to the range with a cold and clean R-9s, my first three magazines fed smoothly.  On my second trip to the range with a cold and clean pistol, there were 4 FTEs in the first three magazines.  On my third test with a cold and clean gun, it malfunctioned in the very first magazine in a manner far worse than a simple FTE.  Any notes I made about failures after the gun was obviously dirty were simple matters of observation.  I believe I did a good job of explaining that these were excusable.  But not all of the failures I saw can be attributed to dirt.

3) dirt again:  Yes!  It was more difficult to disassemble after it had been used.  I simply stated this as an observation.  Since I had read hundreds of posts about the gun before buying it, I expected this and did not mind.

4) orthopedic surgeons:  Yes!  I believe you that Mr. Rohrbaugh is not a surgeon.  I don't recall exactly at this point, but maybe I read somewhere that ONE of the designers was an orthopedic surgeon?  Maybe it was his VP of Marketing?  Maybe he didn't contribute to the design of the gun.  If it matters, I apologize, but it was only a question.  Besides, the question I asked was only intended to be a little bit of humor in an otherwise sad post.

5) putting out fires:  My post was an attempt to present an objective report of my first visits to the range with my new gun.  This was solely for the purpose of giving back to the community of current and future owners.  I'm in no way trying to insult the gun or its makers or the other owners of the gun.  In fact, the Rohrbaugh owners on this forum have been tremendously supportive.  It was this community that made me decide to go with a Rohrbaugh instead of a Kel-Tec, Seecamp, Kahr, Tomcat, Pony, or Guardian.  And despite my first experiences, I don't regret that decision yet.  I haven't ruled out all possibility of repair and I haven't given up on the pistol yet.  There are over a thousand of these pistols out there, right?  And the majority of their owners would stake their lives on them, right?  I just want to be part of that community of people who are confident in what they have in their pocket.  There is no need to rush to Rohrbaugh's defense because this isn't that kind of post.

Title: Re: Range Report part 1
Post by: theirishguard on March 24, 2006, 05:34:19 PM

Wiles, thanks for your lengthy range report. It was well written. I hope and am sure your problems will be taken care by Rohrbaugh. Also welcome to the forum.
Tom

Title: Re: Range Report part 1
Post by: R9SCarry on March 24, 2006, 06:18:42 PM

Wiles - shucks, talk about belated but hey - welcome to the board :)  I had meant to write ages ago but then it slipped my mind.  ::)

Thx for your writing - very detailed and pretty darned objective - and can't fault that.  I'll be interested to hear of the results from the gun's return - any explanations and any changes etc.  The 'orthopod' IIRC is Ed, a valued member of the team.  

GSlinger - thx too for your addition and a welcome also due to you :)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

One thing I meant to post, somewhere.  I quizzed Eric during a phone chat not so long ago - asking him for some definitive ''from the horse's mouth'' quote to try and explain to folks why this is such a costly gun.  Many ask this question.

Well - I know myself of all the immense costs involved with machinery, in fact overall capital investment - it is mind blowing.  Then costs on materials etc too and bottom line - these guys are in business also to earn a crust!!!

Anyway's Erics answer was in fact not only elegantly simple but probably the best. ''This is a custom gun''!!!

True enough - it is hand assembled and tuned and tested - and when viewed this way, hey, forget its diminutive size - just remember all the custom 1911's out there for big bucks - some of which also do not perform flawlessly for all folks all the time.

No gun maker will intentionally I am sure, wish to let something out the door with problems but - thorobreds with tight tolerances can indeed still present their problems now and again.  I cringe when anyone posts that they have problems - because I feel for them - plus I, like so many have seemingly got an R9 (2 actually) that does everything I want and expect.

Title: Re: Range Report part 1
Post by: theirishguard on March 24, 2006, 07:21:52 PM

Chris, thanks for your thoughts.
Tom

Title: Re: Range Report part 1
Post by: Richard S on March 24, 2006, 07:40:24 PM

I second the comments of Chris and Tom.

Title: Re: Range Report part 1
Post by: glioma on March 25, 2006, 01:31:20 PM

I just returned from the range with a brand new R9s. I fired about 15 rounds with a 50% failure to fire rate. Then after firing a round, the round was not ejected. I removed the magazine. The slide will not move back to eject the expended round. I guess this will require a factory visit as I don't know how to clear the expended round without damaging the R9s.

Title: Re: Range Report part 1
Post by: R9SCarry on March 25, 2006, 03:05:31 PM

Glioma - welcome :)

I am not happy to hear of your first range visit tho - that is not good.  Wondering what the ammo was.

To have the lock-up condition now tho is odd indeed and I am wondering if just perhaps there is some issue with the extractor.

Guns are always test fired before they go out so, this is right now something of a mystery - it's not a minor problem but a major one and so I shall be more than keen to know what is what and yes, regrettably does sound like it will have to go back to be looked at.

Title: Re: Range Report part 1
Post by: Calvin Cooledge on March 25, 2006, 03:50:00 PM

Quote

I bought a new R-9s a couple of weeks ago and had my third visit to the range today. After my first box of ammo, I was a little concerned about reliability, but willing to feed it another hundred rounds to break it in and give it a fair chance...

Hi Wiles,
We all welcome you to the forum. Your post was very well written; lucid, controlled, and easy to understand. Just the kind of people we like here;^)

I too had a few problems with my early R9, but a combination of a trip back to the factory, and my improved grip purchase, I have had NO pro blem with my R9S since. I too had a worried look about me, not so much about the money, but I really really wanted this gun to work! I didn't want my money back.  I got to know the Brothers R at the SHOT Show last year (2005) and they are just superb individuals. Believe me, NO manufacturer wants to ever see their product again, in terms of returned merchandise for repair or replacement. BUT, the reality of business dictates certain laws of economic, ie, test firing hundreds of rounds through your gun to assure absolute reliability. That said, only a few rounds can be fired as tests, then the gun has to be cleaned again before shipping. Well, the enormity of the process is staggering. So, what do I do when I encounter a problem? I let the maker fix it.

The factory made my R9S right, and it's totally reliable. I can and do stake my life on it. There are no sure things in life, but one thing is sure, I'd rather have my R9S with me than not...

More on that in the next post...

Steve
(Really, I'm so glad you joined our club. Do not be deterred. You will be happy. Trust me...;^)

Title: Re: Range Report part 1
Post by: glioma on March 25, 2006, 04:47:01 PM

Quote

Glioma - welcome :)

I am not happy to hear of your first range visit tho - that is not good.  Wondering what the ammo was.

To have the lock-up condition now tho is odd indeed and I am wondering if just perhaps there is some issue with the extractor.

Guns are always test fired before they go out so, this is right now something of a mystery - it's not a minor problem but a major one and so I shall be more than keen to know what is what and yes, regrettably does sound like it will have to go back to be looked at.

Thank you for your comments. The ammo was Sellier & Bellot 115GR, Full Metal Jacket, 9 mm Luger.

Title: Re: Range Report part 1
Post by: sslater on March 25, 2006, 04:57:40 PM

Glioma,
Welcome to the forum.  Sorry to hear of your early troubles.

FTF ISSUE:
Your 50% FTF rate is obviously unacceptable.  I'd make sure to use either Speer GDHP 115 or 124 grain ammo or Winchester Silver Tips for the rest of the break-in period (maybe 100 rounds.) These R9's are fitted very tightly and are somewhat ammo-sensitive.  They also require a firm grip - not a Vulcan death pinch - but a good solid hold.  

JAMMED SLIDE:
I reported a jam-up several months ago (as did Erich - another senior forum member).  My gun was well broken in with about 400 rounds thru it.  I had fired one magazine of GDHP's  with no problem.  Dropped out the empty, inserted a fresh mag, and found the slide jammed tight.  The range I patronize gets nervous about shooters fiddling with firearms on the line.  So I packed it up, took it home, made sure there was nothing in the chamber, and gave the slide a very hearty shove.  It came loose.  On disassembly, I found a tiny sliver of metal lying in the grease on the frame rail.  Erich reported the same thing with his R9.
I think the sliver was cartridge case plating material.  It wasn't aluminum and wasn't steel.
Anyway, if you don't feel comfortable "brute forcing"  your brand new gun, the factory will make good on it.  There's just the hassle of shipping it off  :(

Title: Re: Range Report part 1
Post by: Calvin Cooledge on March 25, 2006, 06:30:24 PM

Quote

Thank you for your comments. The ammo was Sellier & Bellot 115GR, Full Metal Jacket, 9 mm Luger.

Wow, does that bring back some memories. When I first got my R9S, I bought some Sellier & Beloit, 115GR FMJ, just as you did. I had some of the Speer Gold Dot hollow points on order and needed something to put through that bad monster. I also put other rounds through it, all with some success or failure. It wasn't till I got that GDHP (from Ammoman.com) that I decided that it was the round for me and this gun. It was relatively cheap in bulk, so I decided to practice with what I carried in the gun. The GDHP did not SOLVE the problem, it just worked a bit better. Now this smacks in the face of what I have learned about ammo, and hardball vs. hollow points. Technically, the face of the hp is flat, and that should not be more reliable than the hardball FMJ. But for me it is.

I cannot emphasize the importance of grip with this gun. At first, it bit me hard, and I wondered if I would be able to control it in an intense situation. On top of that, I have a bony protrusion at the 'crotch' of my thumb and index finger, a double whammy. Now that I have a checkered rubber sleeve, I can shoot it with WAY more accuracy, comfort and confidence. I'm sorry, the carbon fiber is strong and looks cool, but my hand has a tough time with its smooth surface.
I also had great luck with the grip tape. (It also looks way cooler than the rubber sleeve!)

So, grip+proper ammo+adjustment from the factory=one happy camper.
I hope!

Steve

Title: Re: Range Report part 1
Post by: theirishguard on March 25, 2006, 07:02:56 PM

Steve, I believe the GDHP is shorter in length than the hard ball.
Tom

Title: Feeding frenzy...Was:..Re: Range Report part 1
Post by: Calvin Cooledge on March 25, 2006, 08:58:42 PM

Quote

Steve, I believe the GDHP is shorter in length than the hard ball.
Tom

Hi Tom,
Does this mean that a shorter round is more reliable, feeding-wise? As you can tell, I'm not a ballistics expert (nor do I play one on TV;^), but when I was in the realm of the .45ACP, the wad cutters and semi-wad cutters were supposedly the hardest rounds to chamber. And they have flat noses, no?

Is the hollowpoint not the same as a flat point, wrt feeding? Enquiring minds need to know...

TIA!

Steve

Title: Re: Range Report part 1
Post by: R9SCarry on March 25, 2006, 09:37:10 PM

Steve -

There are different ways of looking at length difference I think.  I am not sure a shorter round is by default better for feeding - it could be argued that it might ''tip up'' sooner on way to chamber.  A shorter round also IMO makes for a small increase in tendency for keyholing, due to increased ''jump'' across the already and necessary feebore.

The longer round, as long as it does not foul in the magazine could I think be the better feeder - I forget my length comparisons right now tho have a pic some where.  Ahh - see below.

The Blazer at 1.124 is actually about identical with a Speer Gold Dot - probably IMO the longest OAL - and a round I find chambers well.  The others went thru my R9 OK tho.


(http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/thr/r9s-tests-03/images/ammo-01b-s.jpg)


Re the HP profile - in effect an HP is an FMJ with the nose cut off and so has I reckon enough of the roundness remaining to enable feeding almost on a par with FMJ's.  Full wadcutters and even semiwad's - these have real sharp corners or ledges and certainly can be very problematic, even with revo speedloads.  I have used and shot truncated cone .45acp cast bullets which will feed but still with some element of ''iffyness'' at times.

JHP's are pretty much the limit with semi ammo - and I doubt full wad's or SWC's have any real place at all.

Title: Re: Range Report part 1
Post by: Brenden on March 25, 2006, 11:01:28 PM

Wiles,glioma,

Welcome to the forum!!!

For both of you,I am sorry that your pups are not feeding properly..

Mine have ALL been fed properly and digest as they should!! ;)

WWB has always been fine with me,never tryed the S&B stuff-but I won't shoot it in my AR,so I will not shoot it in my self defense piece..

Please try GD 115s or Win STHPs..

These are THE recommened food for the pup.. ;D

Again,Welcome and I wish you better results with the pups..

Brenden

Title: Re: Range Report part 1
Post by: Brenden on March 25, 2006, 11:06:00 PM

GSlinger,
Welcome to the forum also..

Did not mean to miss you!! ;)

Gotta love the pup. ;D

Brenden

Title: New and improved? Or old and worse. You decide...
Post by: Calvin Cooledge on March 26, 2006, 12:10:42 AM

Thanks, Chris for the clear reply and (clear;^) pix!
I guess the barrel of the gun 'senses' a hollowpoint to
be a rounded ball;^) I know I would;^)

All seriousness aside, I know the dynamics of such a machine
is quite complex, and as we all see, everything must work just
right. I often wonder why a gun, compared to, say, a car, is any
harder to make perfect. It's not that cars are perfect, but that
THEY perform their job, with equally complicated dynamics, with
aplomb. Think about an airbag. Wow! That's complicated. Or an engine, which must work time and again. Although I have to admit,
we are relying on faith, as we can't test the airbags to see if they
are working;^) We just know they do. Or do we?

So, to come full circle with my own reasoning, the first iterations of anything may be more prone to  glitches and failures than subsequent improved versions. (In fact, Consumer Reports did a story about that very thing with first year model cars and later improved versions.) I know that the Brothers 'R' must be continuously thinking of how they can make their gun better. It seems to be their mission...

Steve

Quote

Steve -

There are different ways of looking at length difference I think.  I am not sure a shorter round is by default better for feeding - it could be argued that it might ''tip up'' sooner on way to chamber.  A shorter round also IMO makes for a small increase in tendency for keyholing, due to increased ''jump'' across the already and necessary feebore.

The longer round, as long as it does not foul in the magazine could I think be the better feeder - I forget my length comparisons right now tho have a pic some where.

Title: What's in a name?...
Post by: Calvin Cooledge on March 26, 2006, 12:14:27 AM

Quote

I just returned from the range...

Hi Gli,
Are you a doctor? Researcher? What's with the medical moniker?

Moniker Lewinsky

Title: Re: What's in a name?...
Post by: Calvin Cooledge on March 26, 2006, 12:16:23 AM

It's a pitiful man who quotes himself in email.

Please ignore that last post.
I don't know what got into me...

Steve

Quote

I just returned from the range...

Hi Gli,
Are you a doctor? Researcher? What's with the medical moniker?

Moniker Lewinsky

Title: Re: What's in a name?...
Post by: glioma on April 15, 2006, 12:50:50 AM

Quote

Hi Gli,
Are you a doctor? Researcher? What's with the medical moniker?

Moniker Lewinsky

Yes, I'm a doc in Arizona. After I wrote about my failure to fire rate and jamming, I shipped the R9s back to the factory. I haven't heard anything from them and it's been about two weeks. Anyone have any estimate as to the usual turn around time?

Title: Re: Range Report part 1
Post by: MountainMan on April 15, 2006, 01:55:14 AM

Glioma

Hopefully the R9 isn't shy of doctors.  I bought two R9 holsters from Sawbones - a neurologist from Utah after the factory bought the R9 back.

Give Rohrbaugh a call and let us know how it comes out.

Title: much happier now
Post by: wiles on May 05, 2006, 11:58:17 AM

My R-9s was shipped back on Wednesday and I got it to the range for a short workout yesterday.  After all the disappointment in February and March, I finally finished off a range session with a smile on my face.

The pistol came back without any specific explanation about what had been wrong with it, but the invoice itemized some replacement parts that suggested it wasn't a minor issue:  slide, hammer, 2 magazines, outer spring cap (what is that?  part of the recoil assembly?), and grip screws (I had burred one of them pretty badly and it was nice of them to replace them on warranty).

I wiped it down, super lubed it, and took it to the range.  I put 6+1 of Speer GDHP through it, then 6+1 of Winchester silvertip hp, and finally two magazines of Winchester white box 115gr hardball.  It didn't have a single failure through 28 rounds, and my groups at 7 yards ranged from 3" to 4" depending on my pace.  I'm certain that the groups can be much tighter once I've learned the trigger (I'm spoiled on SA, LEM, and "safe action" triggers).

Given its history, this pistol will get several more workouts like this before I can carry it with confidence, but it's off to a good start.  They seem to have worked some magic at the factory.  I'll let you know if I still feel the same way after a few more sessions.

Title: Re: Range Report part 1
Post by: R9SCarry on May 05, 2006, 12:20:20 PM

Wiles - that is very good to hear.  

Outer spring cap probably yes - the front cap into which the large spring goes, with open coil.

I'd guess they would replace anything that was remotely suspect to insure you receive a top notch gun back to you.  Sounds so far like they have succeeded and it is digesting all you put thru.  Thx for posting about it.

Title: Re: Range Report part 1
Post by: Michigunner on May 05, 2006, 12:40:41 PM

 Wiles, glioma, and GSlinger:

Welcome to the forum.  Your informative posts are much appreciated.

I hope you will come back often.

Bill

Title: Re: Range Report part 1
Post by: glioma on May 07, 2006, 08:29:41 PM

I thought I would give a follow up to my previous posts. My R9 was returned from the factory after almost three weeks. I had called and was told there were some parts that were out of specification, but the invoice enlcosed with the gun only lists a magazine, ejector spring, and hammer.

Anyway, I took it to the range today and shot 40 rounds of Speer Gold Dot 115gr. There were zero failures to fire. The only problem was that with every magazine, the fifth round jammed on feed. I verified this by shooting 3 round magazines, and the feed mechanism jammed every time after the first shot. After about 30 rounds, the next 3 magazines with 3 rounds each fired perfectly. This may be a magazine problem, but I did not have the extra magazine with me to check out. I'll have to do that on a later day. I'm certainly happy not to have any failures to fire, however.

Title: Re: Range Report part 1
Post by: Michigunner on May 07, 2006, 09:29:38 PM

I hope the second magazine takes care of the problem.  It's a bummer when a new pistol acts up.

Bill

Title: Re: Range Report part 1
Post by: MountainMan on May 07, 2006, 09:33:18 PM

I'm guessing the mag also.

Title: Re: Range Report part 1
Post by: Richard S on May 07, 2006, 11:19:54 PM

I am an unapologetic semi-auto fan.  Most of the problems with semi-autos can be traced to the magazines.  A pistol worth thousands of dollars can be reduced to the utility of a simple rock because of a faulty $35 magazine.  

The small things matter . . . .

For The Want Of A Nail

For the want of a nail, the shoe was lost;
For the want of the shoe, the horse was lost;
For the want of the horse, the rider was lost;
For the want of a rider, the battle was lost;
For the want of the battle, the kingdom was lost;
All for the want of a nail.

Title: Re: Range Report part 1
Post by: harrydog on May 08, 2006, 07:16:20 AM

Quote

 Most of the problems with semi-autos can be traced to the magazines.  A pistol worth thousands of dollars can be reduced to the utility of a simple rock because of a faulty $35 magazine.  

[/center]

And yet it's so common to hear people complain that $35 is too much to pay for a magazine.

Title: Re: Range Report part 1
Post by: Aglifter on May 08, 2006, 11:14:57 AM

Personally, if I paid $35 for a magazine, and it didn't work, I'd be upset, however, Rbros mags seem to be very well made -- I'm not happy about having to pay $26 for my XD mags, when some of them won't slide in properly, but so far, they've all fed properly -- I'll find out on the 20th -- my 2nd IDPA shoot...

Title: Another follow-up report  
Post by: wiles on June 11, 2006, 04:14:04 PM

A month after getting the R9 back from the factory and nearly 200 rounds later, I’m not nearly as elated about the reliability as after that first re-test on May 4th.  It might have just been another fluke that it ran 4 failure-free magazines through the pistol, or maybe there was something about the factory tuning that worked for one trip to the range but then went back out of whack.  Since coming back from the factory, it’s averaging slightly more than one failure for each magazine I run through it.  I’ve put the pistol in a dozen other hands to confirm that it’s not just me.  In order to eliminate most of the variables people tend to blame malfunctions on, I’ve gotten into the routine of only running 115 grain silvertips through it and cleaning and lubing with superlube as directed by the factory after every two-magazine test.  (not 1, not 3 – but exactly 2 magazines each trip to the range.)  Since coming back from the factory, I haven’t seen a single stove pipe or failure to eject.  Every single failure has been one or even two bullets pointing straight up out of the magazine – apparently having missed the feed ramp entirely.

I’m still obviously not confident enough to carry this thing, but somewhat hopeful that after breaking in, it might get better.  In the meantime, I picked up a Kahr PM9 for carry purposes a few weeks ago.  That pistol has fed about 800 rounds of a wide variety of  standard and +P loads pushing bullets ranging from hardball to Glaser, MagSafe, Cor-Bon, HydraShoks, Golden Saber, and Gold Dots.  All without a single failure.  And the four-rail design doesn’t seem to mind dirt.

The Kahr wins by a landslide in reliability and power (ability to run every +P ammo I’ve gotten my hands on), but is still noticeably larger in some pockets and more difficult to present smoothly.  The Rohrbaugh wins in material quality and groups much better for me on the rare occasion I can fire 5 consecutive shots without a jam.  Yes, I’m being very patient – even stubborn -- so the pup hasn’t been kicked to the curb yet, but instead follows me to the range twice a week for a tiny workout hoping that some day it might be broken in enough to shake the curse it carries.  In the meantime, all my pockets are getting stretched out by this big, fat and heavy Kahr.  I’ll probably send the R9 back to the factory again if it doesn’t improve before the second or third recoil spring wears out – but the cost of overnight shipping and 6 week wait each time is probably what will eventually break the camels back and make me lose all interest in giving this pistol any more chances.  If it still isn’t working when I get to 1000 rounds ($500 worth of silvertips), it will probably be buried forever in the back of my safe – my conscience would never let me resell a pistol that has proven itself this unreliable.

Pointers from others on the forum whose guns shot themselves reliable leave me hopeful that it’s just a matter of time and patience and wear.  Though it seems counter-intuitive, I’m going to try more one-handed shooting in the next few weeks to see if that helps.  And I’ll throw a couple of boxes of GDHP back into the mix just in case this particular pistol is finicky about the widely recommended silvertips.  And of course, I’ll experiment with a tighter grip and a looser grip and a higher grip and a lower grip.  Any other suggestions?  Positive and helpful suggestions, please.  No more knocking the guys who aren’t having great experiences with your favorite gun.

I’ll give another follow up after a few more weeks.

Title: Re: Range Report part 1
Post by: sslater on June 11, 2006, 06:35:58 PM

wiles,
I didn't notice in your other posts that the recoil spring has been changed yet.  You're in the round count range for that.  The recoil spring in my R9 had shortened up two coils compared to a new one at only 200 rounds.  (The manufacturer's recommendation is to change springs at 250 rounds.)

I "exercise" that new spring before firing the gun by hand-racking the slide a couple of dozen times.   Reliability has been pretty good since then.

Also, someone posted recently that Rohrbaugh said the magazine's feed lip opening at the front should be 0.320".  That area is tough to measure accurately unless you are really good with calipers or have gage pins.  I've found that the shank of a 5/16" drill (0.3125 diameter) gives you a good quick check.  If it slides easily thru, the lips are close to 0.320".  I suppose you could use the drill shank and a feeler gage if you want a more accurate reading.

Hope this helps,
Steve

BTW:  I've switched to 115 gr. Winchester Silvertips.  They're noticeably shorter & "pointier" than the Gold Dots I've been using.

Title: Re: Range Report part 1
Post by: wiles on June 11, 2006, 11:44:00 PM

sslater -- thanks for the pointer.  I try to stay on top of the forum messages, but I must have missed that post.  My caliper isn't exactly a high quality instrument, but it does have a vernier scale, so I checked both mags.  To the naked eye the lips appear to be parallel, but I'm reading 41/128ths along most of the length, narrowing a hair to 5/16th at the very front tips.  Both magazines measure exactly the same along the lips.  It seems so close to the spec you mention that I'm not likely to do any bending right away, but I'll keep that on my list of things to eventually try.  And if I do have to send the pistol back again, I'll be sure to measure how the factory leaves it after tuning.

I did however see a post (probably yours?) about changing out the spring and flexing the new one some.  I put in spring #2 about 70 rounds ago, so roughly 1/3rd of my poor post-factory experience has been with that change.  I didn't think to compare the lengths of the old and new, but I will compare the two the next time I have the pistol apart.  That reminds me -- I should order spring number 3 soon.  ;)

If this was an overly tight 1911, I'd be all over the rails with jeweler's rouge by now.  So far I've been hesitant to tackle this pistol, even with a fine polish.  There's an entire section in this forum on modifications I'm not up-to-date on... and searching isn't helping.  Can anybody tell me how the aluminum and stainless steel holds up to lapping?

Thanks again!  Keep those ideas coming!

Title: Re: Range Report part 1
Post by: R9SCarry on June 12, 2006, 10:51:04 PM

wiles - I'd say a positive NO to even considering any lapping!!

The tolerances are tight and for a reason - added to which any attempt at lapping on dissimilar hardness materials would be IMO catastrophic!!

Title: Re: Range Report part 1
Post by: harrydog on June 13, 2006, 08:06:30 AM

Quote

I "exercise" that new spring before firing the gun by hand-racking the slide a couple of dozen times.   Reliability has been pretty good since then.

What do you mean by "pretty good"? My R9 reliability has been what some might call pretty good, but it's not even close to being 100% reliable so far. For a carry gun pretty good doesn't cut it in my opinion.

Title: Re: Range Report part 1
Post by: sslater on June 13, 2006, 11:33:19 AM

Harrydog,
+1 on your reliabilty statement.  I'm giving my R9S a lot of leeway because it's easy to carry.  I know guys like Clint Smith say a carry piece should be "comforting", not necessarily "comfortable" to carry, but I'm just not big enough to pack full size firearms in warm weather.

"Pretty good" to me meant that I got two stovepipes (empty case sticking up in ejection port) on the last round in the magazine with GDHP 115 gr. ammo. Being a NAA Guardian owner, that doesn't bother me much.  I just drop the empty mag, slap in a fresh one, rack the slide with gun rotated sideways, & keep firing.

I've since switched to Winchester Silver Tips, which fiunctioned flawlessly in all four of my magazines.

BTW:  Did you ever notice that the gun shop never seems to have the ammo you want to buy?
When I was looking for GDHP, nobody in town had them.  Now I want to switch to Silver Tips, and all they have is GDHP!  :P  

Steve

Title: Re: Range Report part 1
Post by: wiles on February 17, 2007, 03:43:55 PM

Well, considering it's going on a year since I bought this pistol, I figured it was time to quit ignoring it and pulled it out of the back of my safe, dusted it off, cleaned it up, re-superlubed it, put in a replacement spring, and shelled out for some silvertips.  I took it out for a workout by a local group I shoot with, and experienced all the same trouble that made me retire it to the safe in the first place.  Barely 2 or 3 rounds will go through without a hangup, double feed, whatever you call it.  It didn't matter who was shooting it -- from the most experienced shootist to the burliest -- nobody could make it run.

So I'm back to the same problem as before.  I don't have enough mean in me to dump this lemon on some unsuspecting fool, and nobody who knows about the gun is willing to offer more than $200 for the pos.  Do I throw more good money after bad and ship it back to them for another stab at "tuning" it?  I think it was something like $80 or $90 to ship it the first time.  Or do I hide it in the back of my safe again and hope to forget about it until I'm old, retired, and desperate enough for the money to sell it "as is" to some stranger?

Title: Re: Range Report part 1
Post by: theirishguard on February 17, 2007, 04:29:33 PM

I would take a breath, and send it back to Rohrbaugh. Call them first and tell Maria that this is the second time to send it back and can they help with shipping.   Tom

Title: Re: Range Report part 1
Post by: MountainMan on February 17, 2007, 06:38:24 PM

wiles

When you said replaced spring did you mean the new stronger magazine spring.  Seems to have solved many FTF problems - this is the only one the company sends out now with their guns.

Also you can tell that you have been away for awhile.  Rohrbaugh no longer recommends superlube but any good  gun oil.

I agree with Tom - if your mag spring is the new longer model then call them and send it back.

Title: Re: Range Report part 1
Post by: Guinnessdog on February 21, 2007, 07:50:17 PM

Wow, its like deja vu all over again. Wiles, your issues mirror mine, including the full auto fire. Sent my pup back twice, which got to be real expensive to ship overnight. Finally ended up getting a Kahr PM9, which I've put about 600 rounds through without a single malfunction of any kind.

However, I have not given up on the pup. You still can't beat it for quick presentation from a pocket holster, and I've done some things that I find increase reliability tremendously. They are:

1. My gun likes Remington Golden Sabre 124 gr. HPs. Looking at the bullet shape, it is much more rounded than the Gold Dot (which my pup hates and chokes on every time), so it feeds much more like hardball.

2. Switch to Tetragun grease rather than Superlube. I know the factory recommends Superlube, but my particular gun works better with the Tetragun.

3. At the range, I fire 2 magazines full, then let the gun cool while I do some other shooting. After the gun cools for 5 to 10 minutes, I fire another 2 mags. I keep repeating this until I've shot all I care to. This seems to either give my hand enough time to recover or keep the gun from getting too hot, or both. By doing this, I've gotten more than 80 rounds through it without a problem. In the past that would have been unthinkable.

My next step is to replace the mag springs with the new stronger ones. I just ordered some today, so with any luck that will completely solve the pup's behavior problems. Wish me luck!