The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: Thunderbolt on October 22, 2006, 12:43:41 AM
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I know we're always looking for better or different chow for our pups. They're pickey little critters and always hungry. I've been looking at these Aguila IQ HP's with some interest ........ Has anyone tried them yet ??? ............... Inquiring minds want to know ;D .
http://www.aguilaammo.com/iq.htm
Regards,
Thunderbolt
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Thunderbolt,
Yes, they have been tried. They are one of the few ammo types that will function perfectly in my R9's BUT at 15 yds they will keyhole everytime when fired from an R9. They do not keyhole in my 2 other 9's
Mike
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Not trying to hijack this thread, but does anyone has links to ballistic testing of these rounds? I just don't understand how they can claim to have that energy on such a low-weight bullet. Or maybe I just don't understand physics as well as I should.
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dfsutton,
The claimed energy of this ammo is probably exagerated. Advertiseing is advertiseing after all. I am sure this energy is from at least a full 4" length barrel. There are two ways to look at energy in any one caliber of ammo, heavy bullet and lower velocity or lighter bullet with higher velocity. Most agree that the best happy medium for a 9mm is the 115gr JHP. In my opinion the shorter your barrel the lower your bullet weight should be.
I am sorry I can't give you a link to the ballistic info. you asked about. It probably doesn't exist in electronic form yet.
Mike
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If one of the new ammo recommendations is Winchester
Personal Protection HP 115gr., it is quite reasonable, relatively
speaking, at Academy Sporting Goods in Houston at $11.29
for a box of 50. I am going to try it.
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F=M x A. That's all you need to know, IMO.
If I want to compare two types of ammo, I just multiply the grains by the FPS. I don't know what type of units it results in, but the higher the number, the better. YMMV.
I've read over at Stephen A. Camp's site, Hi-Powers and Handguns, that if you have a 147 grain 9mm round out of a short barrel, you've basically got a .38 Special when you compare velocity and energy.
Seems to me that if you go below 90 grains in a 9mm with a short barrel, you've got yourself a nice .380, maybe even a +P, but that's just my opinion. As for me, I'll stick with whatever flavor 115 gr JHP round that works in the pup with a good track record, not the latest "gimmick" bullet..
For me, my ideal load for the pup would be the Federal 9BP JHP (not the hydrashock) bullet at around 100-105 grains with a nickel case. Could this give the best performance and reliability for the R9 ? I would like to build it and find out, if I had the resources and time (And Federal does not market their bullets as components anyway). I arrived at this conclusion based upon what I've read from (ok, flame suit on) the Marshall and Sanow one shot stop numbers for the 9BP load. But I've just created a new load here on paper, so all of that data is probably not applicable in this instance.
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Actually, its Force = Mass x Velocity. :P
Just messing with ya.
But you support my initial impression. With a bullet weight that low, you'd have to have twice the velocity just to even out the Footpounds of energy delivered. So for there to be an increase in energy, there'd have to be a huge jump in velocity which seems to only be possible from a +P round. But they list this particular round as non +P with standard pressure. I'm calling shenanigans!
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Actually, its Force = Mass x Velocity.
Actually it's Force = Mass x Velocity x Velocity
That's why these lightweight bullets gain so much "energy" because the velocity is squared. Velocity becomes the main factor. Handgun ammo is not a laser beam where "energy" is important. It's all about the hOles.
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Also: Kinetic energy equals one half mass times velocity
squared.
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Groo here
have you tried winchester nt ?
my pup liked it so much that I got a case.
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OK, has anyone tried the Speer Frangible 90 grain ammo? Information on frangible rounds is hard to come by generally, and there's precious little about this version at all. I've come across a good price on it, so I'm tempted to give it a go and see how it behaves in my R9. Any thoughts or info would be welcome...
7
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Seven:
I read the following in Police & Security News, which may be the ammunition you have in mind. (The comment is about 1/3 down the page at this link:
http://www.policeandsecuritynews.com/janfeb01/frangibleammunition.htm
[size=10]Blount/Speer ZNT
"Blount/Speer offers frangible ammunition in two calibers, 100-grain 9mm Parabellum and 125-grain .40 S&W. These rounds are made with lead-free clean-fire primers and feature a newly designed projectile. The projectile has a fluted copper jacket combined with a cast zinc alloy core and is designed to break into small pieces upon impact with steel targets, backstops, or other similar objects. While ZNT projectiles look like conventional bullets, they contain zinc alloy instead of lead, which eliminates lead dust upon impact." [/size]
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Richard, thanks for the lead. I'm not sure it's the same thing, but could be. I found this stuff: http://www.ammoman.com/images2/9MM-SPR90-1.jpg
on the Ammoman 'close-out' page. It's clearly labeled 90 grain. Hmmm...
7
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Groo has a good thought: Winchester Super Clean NT at
105 gr. looks promising; this came from Richard's link also.
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Seven:
I see what you mean. It must be different ammunition.
I haven't found any other references to a 90-grain frangible 9mm round manufactured by Speer but I would assume that it would be a real "hot rod" primarily for use in training (where lead contamination of firing ranges is a concern) or in conditions requiring limited bullet penetration. I see that American offers one for which they claim a velocity of 1300 FPS (length of test barrel not described):
http://www.a-merc.com/cgi-local/webcat/products_page.cgi?action=view&item=9&reset=4448
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Richard, after doing a bit more checking around, I'm guessing that this may well be a small batch of rounds that Speer produced and then decided to 'orphan'. That would make sense as to why Ammoman has it on 'close out'. Price turns out to be about 34 cents a round, so it's not WWB, but that's still like a third of what GDHPs go for.
So, it's basically a crapshoot - Speer has a good name (and my pup prefers the Gold Dots), but there is little else to recommend this ammo. Hmmm...still haven't decided whether to plunk down the $ for a trial (you have to buy 500 rounds...)
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Seven:
The price of 34 cents per round is good, but since the 500-round requirement raises the ante to $170 it makes for a pretty interesting crapshot. Good luck, if you decide to go for it! 8)
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The price of 34 cents per round is good, but since the 500-round requirement raises the ante to $170 it makes for a pretty interesting crapshot.
Aye, there's the rub. :o Ammoman has a money-back guarantee, but probably not if I shoot the stuff first to see how I like it. ;)
7
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Well, I'm in a gambling mood, so made the order for the 90 grain frangible from Ammoman.
I'll let people know what I think of it once it arrives and I have a chance to test it. I figure at the very worst, I've got practice ammo for just twice the usual price... ::)
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Seven:
I do like to see a fellow "player" take the plunge. Let's me know I'm not the only one out here. ;) Good luck!
If that does indeed turn out to be an orphaned batch of frangible Speer "hot rods" which are compatible with the R9, you might be able to recoup your investment by a few odd-lot sales around here . . . . 8)
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Yeah, Richard, I like livin' on the edge. ;)
Say, what are the rules for private individuals mailing ammo? Anyone know? I have another buddy who has a R9s who I am going to ship a couple of boxes of this stuff to so he can try it, and I need to figure out what the dance is.
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You can only ship by private carrier. That means not by mail.
I've checked into it recently and called the Postmasters office.
I also checked with some gun shops and they said they get ammo by mail all the time. But being in a post 911 world now, I sure don't want to put MY butt on the line to save a buck.
I ended up shipping by UPS or Fed EX ground.
Reinz
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FedEx has told me that they will not ship any ammo by company policy. Tom
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Thanks for the info on shippers, guys. Just spent some time poking around the UPS site - gah, finding simple, easy-to-understand info is almost impossible. Will probably just go to the local outlet and talk with people there, see what they say.
7
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FedEx has told me that they will not ship any ammo by company policy. Tom
I could not remember how I last shipped my ammo, I guess I shipped UPS. I just go to my neighborhood shipping store and let them do it all. I just knew it could not go by mail.
Reinz
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This link may be helpful regarding the legal requirements for shipping ammunition:
http://www.cartridgecollectors.org/shipping.htm
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UPS ground..
Put the ORM-D "label" on the pkg.
Your good to go!! ;)
So FedX no longer doing ammo?
I could swear I received a s--t load delivered by them not too long ago.. :o
This is how they will restrict transfer of legal goods!! By NO ONE shipping an item!! >:(
Brenden
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Occasionally, there will be a local agent of FedEx or UPS who either does not understand or chooses to ignore both Federal law and the corporate policies of his or her employer regarding the shipment of ammunition and/or firearms. One of my FFL clients started having such problems recently with the local agent of his carrier of choice. A letter to the corporate vice president/general counsel resolved the matter, as they say, "overnight." 8)
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So...
The ammo arrived today. It comes in a typical Speer Lawman box of 50, but is clearly labeled on the end of the box "90 GR. Frangible CF" and lot no. G15K21
Bullets themselves are in brass casing, with the profile similar to Gold Dots, though a tad shorter. And where a GD has a rough hollowpoint with a fairly deep well, this has a smooth hollowpoint that is pretty shallow.
Lawman ammo goes for about $12 a box in 9mm, plus shipping, so maybe I got skunked at $16.90 (shipping included), but I didn't get ripped too badly. And the lighter weight bullet should be faster - the specs between the 115 GR and the 124GR lawman are about a 10% decrease in both velocity and energy with the 9 GR additional weight.
Anyway, I'll have to wait and see how they perform, first chance I can get out to the range. Perhaps this weekend.
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Hey everyone,
I got out for the first time today to give that ammo a try. Because our property is still a mess with snow and ice, I decided to just start out with a limited experiement.
Hard to determine exactly what it means, but here were the results:
Firing into a bucket with 12" of sand. Using the R9, Gold Dots and Winchester Personal Protection (both 115 grain) ammo both performed as expected, mushrooming very well and penetrating 3 - 4 inches. 115 grain WWB penetrated 6 - 7 inches, becoming blunted but basically maintaining shape. The 90 grain Speer Frangible was noticeably crisper out of the guns, penetrated to 10 - 11 inches, and showed little or no change to shape. Yeah - the 'frangible' maintained the best structural integrity.
Did the same series using my Steyr S9, same ammo (except the Gold Dots were 124 grain +P, which went a little deeper), got exactly the same results.
Now, I only fired a few rounds of each ammo from each gun, so clearly, more experimentation with the new ammo is called for. But my preliminary conclusion is that the frangible is a hotter, faster bullet with much better penetration, at least when shooting into sand.
What does it mean? I dunno - I welcome thoughts on the matter.
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Groo here
I use win nt with good results.
Mr "K" said that they will round out in test media.
Your cci may be similar but i doint know.
to shatter the bullet need to be brittle so they may not
deforme as the sand maybe to soft.
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I think what groo is saying is right. The frangible is designed to shatter/break up, when it hits hard targets.
I was under the impression the frangible was designed for shooting at steel targets to reduce back splatter; and carried over into to street use as to prevent ricochets, similar to Glaser safety slugs. But , not like Glasers which explode(for lack of a better word for a forceful release of pellets) inside of tissue.
Reinz
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That is my thought, as well. I should get a chance to try the ammo out on some hard targets this week, since the weather has started to warm up again here in central MO. 8)
It is interesting, since you see different uses of the term "frangible" - from everything for use on steel targets in environments where you want the round to basically disintegrate - to something like the Black Talon which is designed to create a more lethal wound by skivving off shards.
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I know what you mean.
If you get a chance to shoot some steel straight on, I'd like to hear what actually happened first hand. I've heard stories that the Frangible ammo is supposed to turn to a dust or powder when it hits steel solid.
Please let us know.
Reinz
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I have shot frangible ammo from my R9 and other pistols. I use Federal Ballisticlean (or some similar name). It's lead free. It does indeed turn right to dust when it hits a steel target. It also has a much lower ventelation requirement and does not leave lead around.
I did this at Sig's indoor range in NH. It worked fine out of my R9 and other pistols.
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Thanks for confirming that jarcher. It's good to actually hear that first hand.
Did take any training courses at the Sig Training Center as well?
Reinz
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The ammo I got is definitely sintered copper.
Took it to the range today, and went through about 50 rounds of the stuff, through three different guns to try and gauge felt recoil. It fed and fired just fine through my R9, a Steyr S9, and a Kel-tec Sub2000 carbine. In each case the loads of the Speer 90 grain frangible felt 'hotter' than 115 grain WWB, which I was using as comparison.
First was a comparison of penetration through wood. The frangible did a little better than the WWB, going straight through a 6"x6" treated post, then through two layers of 2"x6" pine, coming to a stop in a third 2x6 a little deeper (just starting to push out the back of the final layer).
Second was to fire the frangible into a solid steel plate. I set the plate up so that a piece of wood was directly below it, in order that I might see if the round powdered as I thought it might. It did - leaving a fine dust of copper particles embedded in the wood.
I'm still thinking that it might be interesting to test this stuff into gelatin (got a line on some from a buddy, may give that a go later this year), see how deeply it penetrates compared to more traditional self-defense rounds.
I've also done a bit of further research into this kind of bullet, and would point anyone interested to the following sites:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6694888.html
http://www.miragetechnologies.net/SPEER%20Lawman%20RHT%20Ammunition.htm
http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/frangible+bullet
http://www.ammoandarms.com/sinterfire_bullets.htm
I've also seen some information indicating that these types of rounds might be more effective against body armour, since the round 'sheds' the outer layer cleanly while maintaining structural coherence when it encounters kevlar fibers. I don't know how much you can trust that, since I wasn't willing to dig too deeply into the sources for that info.
So, it looks like I have "green" ammo safe for lead-free ranges, possibly something useful for defeating kevlar. In other words, put the stuff away for when I need it... ::)
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Thanks for the info and the report!!
Brenden
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My pleasure. Since this seems to have been an 'orphan' batch of ammo by Speer, it's not likely that anyone will come across it. But just in case someone does, they'll know what they've got.
I've been thinking it over, and am going to stash mine. Further testing might indicate that it is indeed a lot 'hotter' a round (in terms of speed) than most 9mm available at standard pressure. I can see where that would have advantages.
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Seven:
It would appear that you have "broken the code" and that what you have there is indeed a batch of "orphan hot rods." I think I would do just as you suggest and store them in a secure and controlled-humidity environment for use at lead-restricted indoor ranges, in practice with steel targets . . . and in the event the babarians ever manage to breach the city walls. ;)
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Seven - thanks for the in depth range report. Great stuff.
Amen to Richard's words of wisdom too (above).
Reinz