The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: Hk-Itch on March 20, 2007, 11:42:50 PM
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Took my R9 out and shot it over the weekend and noticed that on some of the rounds (115 gn. GDHP) that the primer was flush, no indentation from the firing pin. Just a small area where the pin had struck and fired the round but the surface was flat. Also experienced some double feeds. I put in an order for extra strength mag springs and am going to get some Mil-tec for lubing the gun. But is there any concern for the flat primer strikes?
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HK:
I may have misunderstood, but if what you experienced were light strikes and it happens again, you might check to see if the firing pin assembly/channel has somehow become fouled. I've seen it happen with other pocket pistols -- a combinaton of old lubricant, powder residue, and "pocket dreck" collecting there in an otherwise spotlessly clean gun.
Good luck!
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Thanks for the info Richard. I didn't see any light strikes to the primers. What this is as best I can describe is that it looks as if where the firing pin strikes the primer and make an indentation to ignite the primer and powder, is totaly flat or filled in. So instead of a spent cartridge with a dimple in the primer what I have (on some) is a totaly flat primer with a shiny little circle where the dimple would be.
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HK:
Hmmmmm . . . . I'm guessing now, but since it apparently occurred with only some of the rounds fired, it might have been due to a few hard primers. It doesn't sound like the firing pin is at fault.
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What you're describing, primer flattening, is associated with over pressure loads.
I've always suspected that there are other factors that may play into it, such as a run of primers that have a softer than normal metal forming the primer cup.
Primer flattening also can happen when a bullet gets shoved back in the case from being in a magazine and loaded (chambered) a couple times, but not fired. The impact of hitting the feed ramp drives it back into the case. The OAL is lessened, but more importantly it drive pressures up, sometimes dramatically. I see a lot of people unload and load back up with their carry ammo when coming out of the range. They load the same round that came out of the chamber back in after a range session. Not a good habit, IMO. Myself, if a bullet has been chambered, it gets shot at the range (after being examined for set back or other damage), never loaded back in and carried. Bullets are cheap, guns aren't.
I wouldn't expect to see primer flattening from excess pressure with "normal" factory 9mm SAAMI spec rounds, but have definately seen it in +P+ and SMG handgun caliber ammo. Were it me, I would definately check the ammo and make sure some LE stuff didn't find it's way into the Rohrbaugh, or maybe a "set back" round or 2 got fed through.
Hope this is of some help.
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Thanks for the replies, The ammo I've shot in the gun where Gold Dot 115gn. standard pressure.....at least thats what it says on the box and the head stamp. But to tell you the truth when I touch off a round of this stuff, boy, does it seem hot! I dunno maybe like you said, round set back from shooting. The rounds are to new to have set back from loading and unloading. And each of the rounds shot feel as though they have the same gusto. Maybe a little judicious polishing of the feed ramp?
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I'd definately get a new box(s) of ammo, maybe from a different source / lot number if Speer GD. Shoot the suspect stuff in a P7 or a Glock, which can handle whatever you put in the magazine all the way to +P+. I'm wondering if Speer may have put the wrong stuff in the box, or just plain messed up and loaded too hot. Or maybe (more likely) the box got dumped in the store, and someone put the wrong rounds back in it (I have seen this happen several times). I'm just guessing here based on what I've seen happen at the range/shop. Feed ramp polishing will not have any impact on the situation if the ammo is out of specifications.
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Those are interesting and instructive comments, TM. I think you've diagnosed the problem. Thanks!
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+1 to what Rich said and thanks. Will try it out.
Dave
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Thanks guys, I'm glad I could offer my help. :D
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TW has written two must-read posts resulting from some recent discussions he had with Eric. (The posts are headed "Eric Rohrbaugh Thoughts, Parts 1 & 2"). The second post contains a link to comments on ammunition from the Seecamp web site, the following paragraph of which supports some of TM's observations on the "flat-primer" question in this thread.
[size=10]Fired cases do not reliably reflect the force with which the primer was struck. Because one print is deeper than another doesn’t necessarily mean the deeper print was caused by a harder hit. (The depth of print in a fired case is not a true indicator of the force of the hit, since on explosion the primer usually mushrooms around the firing pin. In actuality, if there were no explosion, the print would almost always appear much shallower. It will be noted there are exceptions where the primer is flattened out against the breech face by the explosion or does not mushroom around the pin ~ giving the impression of a comparatively light hit. The uniformity of Hornady prints has impressed me because it indicates uniformity in primer quality and consistency of powder charges.) [/size]
It all reminds me once again that without the right ammunition even the most expensive handgun is little more effective than a rock in the hand.
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Very nice Rich.....I appreciate the words from Eric R. on the very issue I was experiencing.
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Ok, I don't know the significance.....but since I added the stronger mag springs I no longer can find any emptys with the flat primer strikes..... 8)
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Howdy - I just experienced a similar situation yesterday myself HK.
But only with the Remington 115gr 100rd fun pac from WM.
The strikes look like they only scratched off the nickle plating of the primers, and there were no dents. I only fired 6 rounds from this box. Upon closer inspection with a 5x magnifying glass, 3 out of the 6 had a tiny dent, and 3 had just scratched off the plating.
These are not plus p.
They fired fine on the first strike.
This is the first time I have seen strikes like this. As long as they work, I'm fine with it.
Reinz
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Heard that Reinz, as long as they work! 8)
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I have noticed the same kind of appearance. I believe I only noticed it recently, when using some handloads, though I can't be sure it didn't occur also with factory ammo. I will check into that, next time.
The handloads are 115-gr lead semi-wadcutters from Penn Bullets, and clock at about 1050 ft/sec out of a 4.5" barrel.
However, in my case, it is definitely NOT due to high pressure, because:
1) the handloads were purposely made to be on the mild side;
2) the same ammo when fired in a different pistol gives normal looking primers; and
3) the outer rim of the primer is not flattened (as it is with high pressure). Only the area of the firing pin strike, which looks as if it has been smeared over.
By the appearance, I would guess it's being caused by the primer extruding back into the hole in the breech face, then being wiped down as the barrel drops during cycling, dragging the case head downward across the breech face.
Ironically, these handloads have had problems feeding in pistols such as the Walther P1, which is of an older military design, yet they are at least as reliable as anything I've tried in the Rohrbaugh. No failures to feed, and only the occasional stovepipe.
The appearance of the primer is kind of spooky, though. I've got a picture but I can't figure out how to post it, since I have no website to host it on.
Albert
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very interesting.............. ??? Tom
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Yup, that's exactly what I was happ'n to me. My last range session out I couldn't find any primer hits like that though. Doesn't mean they were'nt there, I just didn't find any. That was also after I swapped out the mag springs with the stronger ones.
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Just a quick update. I had the opportunity the other day to fire a few rounds of WWB. The primers weren't smoothed flat, but the firing pin indentations were oblong -- not round. This seems to indicate that the case is being pulled downward as it is ejecting, before the firing pin has had a chance to retract. Maybe that is by design?
Albert
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Just purchased a R9S yesterday - First trip out I didn't suffer any FTF in 75 rounds of various brands but I did have the flat primer strike issue. Has anyone found a solution to this problem... this happened with Federal, Remington and Speer Gold Dot (all standard pressure - not +P)
Lookls like the primer is balloning and then being sheared flush by the breech as the pistol cycles. I aligned the extractor marks at 3 o'clock in these pics - so the breech is wiping the brass upwards.
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x88/BogoRatta/DSCF0086.jpg)
Also this is evident in the 2 spent cartridges supplied by the factory.
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x88/BogoRatta/DSCF0085.jpg)
One more thing is I noticed some alarming wear on the alloy frame!
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x88/BogoRatta/DSCF0072.jpg)
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Mine has the same wear.....appearently normal.
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@bogo-rata: My flat primer strikes look just about like yours. There is a circular pattern that just matches the diameter of the hole in the breech face through which the firing pin passes. Coincidence? I think not!
I am, for the present, considering that the "flat primer" issue, as well as the "drag" issue for WWB cartridges, is harmless. Rest assured I will post if I see any indications to the contrary, and I hope others will do so as well.
[Ironically, CCI primers which were used in my reloads that exhibited the "flat primer syndrome" are supposed to be HARDER than the Winchester primers that showed "firing pin drag" indentations. :shrug:]
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st_albert - excellent analysis! The primer case is deforming into the firing pin hole and then being sheared off as the barrel drops.
Today I methodically fired a variety of ammo and collected the brass from each shot. I still saw the 'flattened primer' or 'primer shearing' to a greater or lesser degree with every brand. Also I noticed that on the primers of the 2 failures to fire during the session, there were crescent shaped marks in the primer cap. Likely to have been caused by the sheared off primer metal lodging in the firing pin channel and preventing the firing pin from striking correctly. See photo for enlarged view of the 2nd 'dud'.
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x88/BogoRatta/Slide1.jpg)
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x88/BogoRatta/Slide3.jpg)
I am new to this forum and to this pistol. Do any other owners have a similar issue? Is this a common thing with these pistols? Any help/comments would be appreciated before I return my new little loved one back to Rohrbaugh.
Thanks in advance,
BogoRatta
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Well.....apparently not an isolated incedent. Great pics guys! Thats exactly what I had experienced and seen. Again, its not been an issue so far as reliability and function. My solitary issue was with the weaker mag springs and now corrected.
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Thanks for the feedback Hk-Itch...
The frame wear; you are absolutely correct on...it seems normal, after I shot the R9 some more today... However, those loose shards of crescent shaped metal from the primer could cause you to angrily 'click' at the BG when the last thing he should hear is a BANG!
On a positive note - the 'lil gun has fed many brands of ammo flawlessly after a only short break in period. (apart from deliberate limp-wristing to push the envelope of the R9's reliability)
I am interested to know if Rohrbaugh have a fix for the main topic of this thread, before I throw away another $50 in shipping...
(all that test ammo wasn't cheap BTW)
Cheers and Good Shooting,
BogoRatta
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BogoRatta,
The wierd primers are pretty common with my 2 R9's and I have decided that this gun pushes the envelope so much with the long freebore and it's semi locked breech design and the obvious difficulty of designing a gun this small that fires 9mm and many other aspects of this gun I decided to quit worrying about all the various issues as long as mine are reliable.
Since you are haveing FTF issues I would definately sent it back and definately send your excellent photos to help the R bros. correct your gun and probably help them help others as well.
I bet I got you beat on spending money on various brands of ammo in testing my R9's. :)
Mike
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OK.. returned pistol to R.... and rcvd it back today.....
Service was A1+
spoke to the main man (Karl) WOW!!!
Exremely helpful!!!! (and he is a courteous gentleman)
I have to say how impressed I am at such personal attention from the manufacturer/owner.....anyone reading this should just go ahead and buy one....the best mini 9mm I have had the pleasure to own/shoot...
I will fire my lil mini next wkend and report out!
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Service is A-1
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BoboRatta:
If I have not welcomed you to the Forum, I do so now.
Karl and Eric Rohrbaugh are true gentlemen who are dedicated not only to providing the finest quality handguns but also an extraordinary level of customer service. I've always found it a real pleasure to do business with them.
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Thanks for the welcome Richard!
Yesterday, I finally got the opportunity to take the pup to the range . I fed it 5 clips of Speer Gold Dot and it digested every one without a hiccup. I am no sharpshooter, but was impressed when I put 5 rounds in a 3 inch ring @ 7 yards (nearly perfect but for that one flier!).
Cheers!
Bogo
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Excellent!!
Any difference on the "primer issue"?
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Brenden,
Primer strikes were consistent without the shaving/flat look I was seeing previously (as pictured in my earlier posts in this thread)
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Brenden,
Primer strikes were consistent without the shaving/flat look I was seeing previously (as pictured in my earlier posts in this thread)
Did the R Bros tell you what all they did with your pup?
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FWIW, I recently replaced the outer recoil spring, and installed new heavy duty mag springs as well. It had no effect on the appearance of the handloads with CCI primers (which were still flattened and sheared). Also had a few failures to fire, possibly from blocking the firing pin hole in the breech face with sheared-off primer material.
Primers of Winchester White Box value pack ammo look like WS6's pictures above, except maybe the firing pin indentations are a bit more elongated. In other words, there is no smushing flat. And yet CCI primers are reputed to be harder than Winchester. Go figure.
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Brenden,
Mr. Karl R spoke to me personally before returning my pup; he replaced the barrel and slide and personally tested the pistol before returning it to me. Still shoots without a hiccup!
My only complaint now is that it's not twice the size and weight because I can't shoot more than 3 or 4 clips without my wrist getting tired!
BogoRatta
::)
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Brenden,
Mr. Karl R spoke to me personally before returning my pup; he replaced the barrel and slide and personally tested the pistol before returning it to me. Still shoots without a hiccup!
My only complaint now is that it's not twice the size and weight because I can't shoot more than 3 or 4 clips without my wrist getting tired!
BogoRatta
::)
Karl is a great guy,I have had the pleasure in speaking with him myself..
Shoot a little,carry a lot!! ;)
Have fun with the pup!!
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Brenden,
Mr. Karl R spoke to me personally before returning my pup; he replaced the barrel and slide and personally tested the pistol before returning it to me. Still shoots without a hiccup!
My only complaint now is that it's not twice the size and weight because I can't shoot more than 3 or 4 clips without my wrist getting tired!
BogoRatta
::)
One word: Arfortyfive 8)