The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: BytorJr on September 06, 2007, 03:02:22 AM
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I've been thinking about getting an R9 (stealth for me) for quite some time now. However, having had my share of problems with my Seecamp to which I will say Larry Seecamp stands by his product 100% and has fixed every time - so please don't get the wrong opinion of Mr. Seecamp. As a result though, I'm a little scared of reliability of small frame guns. First off I'm not here to have a reliability flame war, just to ask a few "relatively" intelligent (in the eye of the beholder) questions.
1) The recoil spring: 100 rounds seems like a VERY short lifespan. I don't want to go broke practicing; I'd rather spend money on ammo. For example, suppose I want to go take a tactical training class for concealed carry, would I have to change every 100 rounds? I understand the 100 round rule for "true" carry when your life is on the line (or could be), but is there damage that would occur to the slide/frame if this rule was "violated" to say 300 rounds for a training session like TJ Pilling has at Tiger Valley in Waco, TX which focuses on drawing and shooting from concealment (not from a holster on your side all with your shirt all nice and tucked in)? Also would I have to shot Gold Dot's or would WWB or Aguila work well enough for this purpose?
I'm aware that some of you have the belief that shoot the pup one a little since it's not a target gun. I'm of the opposite opinion. I believe one needs to shoot A LOT, especially in the first months you own the gun. Then, taper off to say 50-100 rounds per month. (I certainly can't do that with my J-frame or I wouldn't have a thumb and palm heal, but I get close). Remember, if this is your primary carry gun, which IMO you have to be at your ultimate peak of shooting ability, to which 25 rounds a month or every other month isn't going to cut it. Am I talking of blasting 300-400 rounds per month out of it, absolutely not...besides, even 9mm has gotten silly in $$$...but I would think 50-100 should be in the realm of reality.
2) How often does the mag spring need replacing?
3) Are the feed issues the recoil spring or lubrication? Does Eezox work well or is thicker say Amsoil spray grease needed on the slide rails?
4) My definition of "reliable" is that if it cannot feed 50 rounds without cleaning, it's just not reliable enough for my life to be bet on it. Also, I don't believe it should have to cool down for 30 minutes every say 14 shots in order to be reliable for shots 15-21. No, I hopefully won't every fire off that many to save my life, but it's a bench mark I use for smaller frame guns. In particular, it may help imitate the amount of dirt and dust that just naturally get into a pocket pistol. My HK can go over 1000 rounds in 3 hours of continuous fire (with only reloading as a break in the action) and still function flawlessly, but I don't expect the R9 to, so I'm not going to harp on this issue - different tool, so I don't expect THAT kind of reliability.
5) As much as I like my J-frame which is still the ultimate pocket gun IMO, I want more capacity (even if it's just 2) but with the more important factor of having faster follow ups that are almost impossible with the J-frame without constant practice on steel targets placed roughly 10 feet apart.
SWAT magazine had a fairly good article on this in this issue.
6) Does the magazine release pop out a lot? My Seecamp consistently works out and the mag just falls out, unlike say the HK P7M8 which has a "backwards" design for a heal release? How fast are the mag reloads? Certainly not as quick as an HK or even a Browning style, but how much time is lost because of the heal release?
And once again, please do not take this as a bashing of Larry Seecamp with my mag problem, I just seem to have had a few problems which Larry has always been gracious enough to fix - which should speak volumes about Larry's integrity. I'm sure the Brothers R are just as outstanding, and from my meeting with them, I believe Karl, at SHOT 2007 I can pretty much confirm this.
Well, that should be a good start for my questions. Thanks, and thanks for allowing me to lurk for a few years.
Thoughts and suggestions are welcome, but please, no flames.
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Welcome to the forum..
I can not type well enough to answer all of your questions/concerns.. ;)
I have not had any problems with any of my pups,and I am using the "old" springs-both mag and recoil..
IMO-the Seecamp, or the R9 is not a "target" gun..
You may be setting yourself up for a dissappointment from the very start-IMO..
The pup is a tight tolerance gun,being "heated" sometimes affects this-I have not shot over 8-10 mags worth at a sitting,and that was with a cool down in between 2-3 mags..
I look at it this way,1 mag is all I care about with this gun,or a Seecamp,as reloading is not a quick thing-even though I carry a spare..
I carry a Glock IWB when applicable,which I will use first if needed-But I will not feel "undergunned" if the pup is to be used.. 8)
The R Bros will back up the pup,just as Larry apparently has on your Seecamp issues..
I am in the camp of shoot a little,carry a lot..
Wish you well in your search-and glad to have you here!!
Brenden
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BytorJr,
Ditto Brendon.
In the whole lifetime of an R9 you should shoot maybe 3 to 4 hundred rounds through it total. If you think you are going to shoot this gun like you would shoot a Browning Hi-Power, you are setting yourself up for disapointment. If you shoot several hundred rounds through it something is likely to break. As has been said before, this is not a gun that one plinks with.
I have not 'wrung out' the new recoil springs yet but I would still bet that a 100rd replacement will be the best. A recoil spring costs maybe 7 bucks or so? What does 100rds of premium self defense ammo cost?
The gen2 mag springs are quite a bit stouter than the gen1's and many R9's function fine with the gen1 mag springs so I don't think you will have to replace mag springs EVER.
I will admit that I did not read your entire post. If you are a long time lurker then you should know the answere to a lot of your questions already.
Mike
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Well, thanks for the comments folks. However, DVC hit the nail on the head with a sledgehammer. If I cannot shoot at least 50-100 per month (which IMO is a minimum for true competency), then this is definitely not the gun for me and I shall keep my J-frame. No offense towards anybody, that's just my opinion and the opinion of most tactical schools. Granted, if ammo goes up, that number is going to have to go down just due to sheer pricing, but as it stands, that's "my number."
Also, to only shoot 400 rounds from a pistol, over the life of the gun is setting yourself up for total disaster in the case of emergency and testing purposes. A handgun should be just that...and extension of your hand, both in terms of "pointability" and especially in muscle memory. Each gun is different. That's in particular why I'm looking at the R9 instead of my J-frame. At least the R9 is SIMILAR to an HK or Glock, etc. Not to mention the recoil is less than a 340PD. I also heard the 340PD won't hold up well. Well, mine's got probably 2000 rounds (though only a few hundred 357's) and it's doing fine. Some wear from the 357's, but that's when I decided 38+P would be better especially in light of faster follow ups.
Reloads are also important. NEVER think you won't have to reload!!! Maybe you have to do a tactical or a combat reload say to get to your car, back to the house, or somewhere else to get the big bad boy defense weapon out, but these should reloads be drillled into you - yet again another failure of the J-frame....try to load one of those fast!! :).
As for the mag spring, I have no problem with the 100 round "limit." But if you've ever taken a tactical training class, or any basic handgun class for that matter, the round count goes up faster than you can imagine. It'd be very hard to change every 100 rounds when you're given time to reload mags while the other group shoots, then you're up. Also, it's a strict no-no, and will get you expelled from all the schools I've been to if you decide to "break down" your gun right there. You shoot, guns in holster, reload all mags that have been expelled, then shoot again. To change springs, more than likely you'd be sent off to the "smith's" area or have one of the assistants with you, losing valuable training time and possibly even shutting the range down for everybody else while you do your spring change. That's unacceptable if one plans on this form of training to get proficient. Besides, the occasional malfunction is VERY good practice and one I'd be willing to live with during training...just not in "real" life.
As for a target gun...I would be shooting a 22, not a 32, 38, 357, 9mm (Kurz or Luger), 45, etc. I practice for one thing....self defense. This WILL not be...repeat WILL NOT be a target gun. Sure, it'll shoot paper (preferably steel) targets, but I'm not going out to have a really nice Hamden series High Standard here to blast holes at 50 yards.
Also, I think I mentioned a cool down period after 3 or 4 mags. (4 tops). But it should be able to handle 3, period. If it can't, then it's not for me. Tight tolerance is fine, bu too tight is a liability. Just look at how well an AK functions....not what I'd call a GREAT looking gun, but one of the best of all times without a doubt...and it has well..does it even have tolerance? :) :).
I'm glad some of you guys are happy with your pups, but other than what DVC said, unless somebody else chimes in, I'll stick with the J-frame and not look back....for now that is.
Thanks for allowing me to pester you guys and for your input. I know this board has some guys with good views on a variety of topics, so that's why I came here. If the information I'm getting isn't satisfactory for me, then simply put you've saved me money; but you've at least told it to me and not led me down some path. Again, thanks!!!!
So, in a nutshell, since I tend to write long posts...would the R9 be able to handle say 500 to 700 rounds per year?
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In a nutshell: easily.
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I would not have a problem shooting 100 rounds a month,there is nothing with the construction of the gun that would not allow this to my knowledge!!
I personally choose not to..That is my choice..
I broke my pups in till I felt that they were reliable,what I felt was reliable.....
Now I shoot 3-4 mags every month or so and keep the pup clean..
I have not been to any "Name" training classes,not that I would not have liked to do so,but now that is past..So I can not speak on that..
Do not worry about changing springs out at # 100,you shoot it enough,it will tell you when it's needed.. ;)
I have done enough "testing" with the pup in my pocket,that I feed it what it likes-115 grain GDHP,WWB,STHPs,all seem to be good to go in mine.. :)
DVC-Welcome to the forum..
The problem is that many people choose to treat the pup as a "target gun" and choose any off the shelf ammo to do so..
The Seecamp has recommended ammo choices,the pup also has it's faves..
Glad to have you all on the forum!! 8)
Brenden
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I challenge the notion of "shoot a little". To be effective with an arm, especially in the implied unscripted and fast changing self defence context, the user needs to be very proficient and familiar with it. And not just as standing two hand with stationary targets. The R9 is a unique arm, with unique performance and handling traits, and practice with a larger gun would not anticipate these. There seems no substutute for frequent practice, and the notion that the Rohrbaugh may not be used in this manner seems disingenuous given the implied pedigree.
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I know that the Rohrbaugh brothers have said in the past that this gun is meant to be carried a lot and shot a little, or something to that effect. I'm not sure if the reason behind this is that the gun won't hold up to thousands of rounds or if it's because the snappy recoil would make it unpleasant to shoot that much.
I don't think anyone has really "pushed the envelope" to see how many rounds the R9 will go. I believe one of the very early pistols that the brothers have has gone about 5,000 rounds, but that's the most I've heard of.
There are many people here who have very, very few rounds through their guns and are content to keep it that way. But I personally would like to be able to shoot up to 100 rounds per month with this gun and still have it last indefinitely. But if I were to shoot it that much, in only 5 years the gun would have more rounds through it than any known R9 to date, so I'd be in uncharted waters. Maybe it wouldn't be a problem but maybe it would. An aluminum frame in a 9mm this small really takes a pounding and may not hold up.
This is all the more reason for Rohrbaugh to produce an all stainless steel version of the gun which could be used for practice and would hold up better than the aluminum framed version over the long haul. It would give many, many R9 owners a really good reason to purchase a second R9; one for practice and one for carry. That makes so much sense. I really hope they do it.
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This pistol might not be for everyone. :( Tom
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with my new Rohrbaugh's...(have both the R9s and Stealth all in 2 weeks)...sickness I know. My plan is to shoot some practice mags, both WWB and the some Speer gold dots, then pocket holster the R9s for any close range emergencies.
After reading and doing my homework on this gun, I understand that this is what this gun is intended to do. It was created for convenient pocket power, god forbid if you ever need it. It was not created to be a workhorse that you take to the range weekly, it is a precision instrument that can be with you in times where others can't, and provide adequate stopping power. I have many others that can be abused at the range. That is my intention with the Rohrbaugh, others may vary.
EricE
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pbwe and DVC, it sounds like we're on the same wavelength. I just don't think it's possible to get too much familiarity with a firearm, especially one used for self-defense in a concealed environment. One of the major issues I hear from LE is that they don't get enough range time unless they spend their own time and money. Kind of the same principle...practice, practice, practice...of course, perfect practice.
If the R9 can't handle this "50-100 round per month" practice, then it's not the gun for me. If it works for others, great, I'm not knocking it. I do think it's one fine looking handgun...one of the best out there. However, almost any good instructor will tell you regardless of the weapon used, you MUST be proficient with it. That's why I'm trying to find a pocketable replacement for the J-frame. Stick with strictly semi-auto's...then the hand position is almost the same for all weapons. Even I myself find that I'm starting to get lazy and not practice draws and mag reloads, but I'm aware that I need to.
Maybe I'm overly cautious, just not that good to begin with (highly probable), or just like to be prepared (I was a studyhaulic in college, but most engineers were.) If you other guys feel prepared, and I do hope you are, great more power to you; we need folks like you out there. At least we're all somewhat prepared. Nothing more silly than getting robbed at gunpoint when you either don't own or don't carry.
I also want to say that I appreciate how civilized this board is, along with the Seecamp forum. I'm on one other board, and I'm continually in some kind of argument that gets blown out of proportion. You guys have made me welcome since the first post, and I truly appreciate it. Regardless of our perceived differences on practice (and that could be all it is), you are all a bunch of (as Leupold Butters Scotch would say) "swell" guys.
On a final note, I would like to know the "official" round count limit from somebody like Karl or Eric. Has this ever been truly mentioned?
Thanks again, good luck, and stay safe.
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It has been stated that for the pup to function properly, It should be cleaned between 50-80rds. Recommended lube now oil. Instead of grease. Because of the tight tolerance of the gun don't overheat it. Recoil spring change take your choice 100 rounds or more. If there is a problem ever with shooting your pup and it breaks send it back for repairs. Rohrbaugh will fix the gun forever for the orginial owner. If you shoot reloads or abuse it than forget it. If you want to go out and shoot it go ahead. I think Karl's gun has 7000 rds. threw it. If someone has doubts about this gun or any other don't buy it. Then you never have to worry. Stick with what you like. Then everyone is happy. There have been pros and cons listed about these firearms for long periods of time. Most people know what they want from a pistol, and it is very easy to determine from all the info out there whether this gun is right for you.
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That's a good point...as long as they're in business, the gun will be repaired or replaced should it break, assuming it wasn't abused. And if +P ammo isn't used, no one really knows how long an R9 will keep on ticking. Could be that it will hold up to heavy use as long as the springs are changed often enough.
Someone needs to step up to the plate and start shooting a thousand rounds a month to see how long the R9 can hang in there. No, I'm not volunteering. :)
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I think Brenden should experiment, since he has 4 to spare. He can afford to lose one if necessary. :o Brenden it is for the good of all mankind. John
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Eric Rohrbaugh has over 5,000 rounds thru his R9s, I've heard. Tom
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Hello everyone,
I totally disagree with what has been said here and what has been passed on from some experts that one must shoot there carry gun 50-100rds a month. Total Crap.
If you go to the range reqularly and shoot a couple/three different handguns you will be good to go with a R9. The R9 has very, very good natural pointing characteristics. It simply goes to target with little effort. That is just my personal experience, for others this may not be the case.
The fast reload/mag change issue has also been brought up. Another magazine? You must be kidding. You have been watching to many movies. If you are a Joe Citizen and you get in a situation where you fire 7 rounds and you must use another magazine I can just about guarantee you that you are going to wind up faceing charges.
Now I know that my postings tend to read differently than I intend them to read so I have to say that I mean no personal insult to anyone. These are simply my opinions based on my life experiences.
Mike
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I think Brenden should experiment, since he has 4 to spare. He can afford to lose one if necessary. :o Brenden it is for the the good of all mankind. John
John,
I may be willing to do so..
If you provide the ammo-115grain GDHPs preferred.. ;D
No pup is expendable in my book!! ;)
Brenden
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Well, it said I was too long winded.
I respectfully disagree that 50-100 is a load of "crap." Go do a dynamics training class and see just how bad you begin to shoot when the old poop hits the fan. I was run down a few times by a moving box at Tiger Valley that was made to fall down only when a CNS hit would occur. Five rounds wasn't enough in 60% of my times at bat. I fully missed in 20% because 5 shots wasn't enough (and I wasn't a good enough shot).
I don't carry a speed loader, and here's another reason I want (or think I do) an R9...mags are much easier and discretely carried. This test was also carried out with full concealment. Either in pocket or side holster, I went to side holster because in the pocket I kept drawing out the cruddy holster (a holster isssue so that's another topic). However, Mr. Bad Boy box was around 5-7 yards when he came running at me, and since distance is your friend, you try to run away too (since in this case he had a knife or gun). Running and shooting with somebody coming at you, while not at Carl Lewis speed, is NOT fun. It shows how vulnerable you are. Also, standing and letting them come at you so you can "eye them up" is not an option...I asked this, and it was demonstrated...I was toast before I even had my shirt untucked.
Shooting static paper targets all day, with plenty of time between shots (what I'd call target shooting) is nice, but it (IMO) doesn't translate well to self defense. Hence, this is why I'd like to be able to run at least 1 if not 2 boxes per range trip or once a month through the R9, complete with double taps and maybe even a double with a quick single.
Before you think that shooting 7 - 14 rounds is a LOT, go take a class like this. Before you think I'll wait until they're 3 yards from me....go get attacked by a moving box :). Don't do this for me for me, but for yourself and your country, it will open your eyes. I too used to think...wow, how can those cops shoot 60 rounds and not hit anything but the building.....well, go dynamic and you'll see full well why.
However, I like the idea of Brenden doing a full test. Let's challenge him to do 600 rounds for 3 months :).
Where do you live Brenden..what part of the country. If you're close enough, I'll volunteer..though it wouldn't be with Gold Dots (not that their is anything wrong with them)
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I think that the R9S would do just fine for the tactical shooting class. Yes, you might want to change out the recoil spring after completion but, I wouldn't think you would have any wear issues. I would make sure that the weapon was reliable and broken in properly before. Then replace the recoil spring and have at it. Most of the early owners here where used to changing out the spring after 250 rounds anyway.
On another note, Mike brought up a valid point. There are other ways of training with your weapon. Dry firing for one is an excellent way to train with your gun if you don't have the time nor the funds to shoot on a regular basis. Visualization is another great way to train, many martial artist use visualization, meditation techniques as a part of their training.
I don't think that shooting the R9S 50-100 rds a month is going to harm the gun. As its already been stated here, as long as you maintain your gun and swap out the springs on a regular basis it should perform a long time for you.
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I know of one forum member (I shall not mention his name) who has put thousands of rounds through his R9 without experiencing any problems at all. I would think this is the norm.
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I agree. I wonder who that guy might be ??? Brenden I won't be sending you any ammo now to test fire your pups. I do need to know who the perp is that is shooting all these rounds.
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I respectfully disagree that 50-100 is a load of "crap."
Me too. The more familiar you are with a particular gun, the better chances you have of not screwing up when the big adrenalin rush hits. In those circumstances, you'll need all the help you can get, along with a little luck. But I don't think you're going to convince some people of that.
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I agree. I wonder who that guy might be ??? Brenden I won't be sending you any ammo now to test fire your pups. I do need to know who the perp is that is shooting all these rounds. We need to shut up some of these whinners on here. ::)
My days of shooting 600 rounds are long gone,no wish to do so with the pup for sure..
Is anyone willing to shoot 600 with the Seecamp in .380?
IMO-If you feel you are proficient with any gun-then carry and practice as needed to keep that profientcy(sp) up..
I have not been to any "big name" schools/training classes,but I feel no less capable of protecting my family.. ;)
I have no reason to believe that there is a "Mileage" limit with the pup,to each there own on how much to shoot,clean,replace springs..
Early reccommended recoil change outs were 400 rounds-that was with the "old" type-which is what I run in my pocket pup..
Now if I am going to shoot a LOT of 9mm,I will just use this-it's a lot quicker!!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v611/glockme/100_3059.jpg)
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Brenden,
That looks good. Unfortunately for me I have got you beat in the "quicker" department. My MAC 11-9 has a very high rate if fire. Can you say "bullet hose"? My MAC is fun but is goes through ammo like you wouldn't believe. :'(
Mike
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Brenden,
That looks good. Unfortunately for me I have got you beat in the "quicker" department. My MAC 11-9 has a very high rate if fire. Can you say "bullet hose"? My MAC is fun but is goes through ammo like you wouldn't believe. :'(
Mike
Mike,
I agree on the hose!!! ;)
I can go a bit quicker than normal, with a change on the buffer length though!! :)
As an afterthought-I could have sworn that John had posted right after me with a nice Uzi shot also?? What say you? LOL..
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Brenden,
That was one of those self-destruct photos. Glad you saw it. ;)
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Brendon,
I have shot UZI's. They are OK if that is what you like. I personally would not trade my MAC for an UZI. The MAC is different and in my opinion better than the UZI. Now would I trade my MAC for an MP-5, you bet I would. Again the MP-5 is to different from a MAC or an UZI to try to make direct comparisons. They are all very different guns.
At first I had the same feeling about the MAC as most people who do not own one: they look ugly and they seem sort of flimsy or cheap. The look grows on you very quickly as does the handling qualities of the gun and the absolute reliability is a big plus. MAC's don't break. I would bet that if someone where to shoot a MAC and an UZI side by side that given the same round count the UZI would jam or break long before the MAC.
Mike
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Brendon,
I have shot UZI's. They are OK if that is what you like. I personally would not trade my MAC for an UZI. The MAC is different and in my opinion better than the UZI. Now would I trade my MAC for an MP-5, you bet I would. Again the MP-5 is to different from a MAC or an UZI to try to make direct comparisons. They are all very different guns.
At first I had the same feeling about the MAC as most people who do not own one: they look ugly and they seem sort of flimsy or cheap. The look grows on you very quickly as does the handling qualities of the gun and the absolute reliability is a big plus. MAC's don't break. I would bet that if someone where to shoot a MAC and an UZI side by side that given the same round count the UZI would jam or break long before the MAC.
Mike
I am sorry but I have to disagree with you on the mac vs uzi reliability..
Macs break at various spots,not by my experience-others..
Da Uzi has went thru various wars-the mac has went thru-I guess I don't what??
I want a mac- so I am not against it..
Give me a Mac 9 with a Lage upper= an Uzi... ;)
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thread hijack
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Hijacked maybe...but a cool one :).
Seriously, I doubt I'd want to shoot the pup more than 50 times per session...I can see 75; but 50 with the J-frame leaves me questioning my sanity after 1 or 2 days.
Somebody did say that all shooting will make you more proficient, I won't disagree with that either; but nothing beats practicing with the main piece. Take Formula 1 drivers - though they have the backup car set to the "same" settings, they never are as comfy with them...and I dare say for the most part nobody is as anal retentive as F1 Drivers.
Oh well, I think it seems like there are more than a few folks who shoot a fair number of rounds out of their pups...this makes me feel better. Still don't know if I'm going to jump on one....especially after being told my L3,L4,L5 disks are bulging, herniated, and ruptured with L2 having some wierd bone spur or something....I've gotta get that sorted out first before any more purchases.
This doesn't mean I'm going to leave you guys alone though
;D
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Yes-things get Hijacked here once in awhile!!
I plead guilty as charged!!!
This happens on friendly forums occassionally!! ;)
No more FA notations from me on this thread... ;D
Back on track-I may be willing to take donations to do the 600 rounds a month test.. 8)
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worst than F1 drivers.....no one except ice hockey goalies ;) Tom
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Since it's in fashion, here's another hijack:
BytorJr: two principle components of spinal column soft tissue (as distinct from the spinal nerve complex) are collagen and cartilage. Lumbar issues can be due to either one breaking down, deteriorating, etc.
I suggest you try the supplement regime detailed below before going for an operation, which effects are not reversible and which associated physical and quality of life consequences are never fully detailed by the medical employees, who need the work.
All the below are available from a vitamin vendors, I use Vitamin shoppe Brand and Solgar because diversions to other brands indicated a loss of potency.
For collagen integrity: glycine + proline + lysine + gelatin + vitamin C. These are "essential" and "nonessential" proteins that exist in the body normally. Google "collagen" and you will eventually find its composition is essentially these proteins. Start with 2 grams a day of each and later go to 1 gram a day maintenance. Gelatin must be animal origin, not vegetable origin. Vitamin C can be kept to 1 gram a day in any case. Take with food, I do a set at breakfast and a set at dinner.
For cartilage integrity: chondroitin + glucosamine. Start with 2 grams a day of each and later go to 1 gram a day maintenance, with food. I use the separate nutrients rather than the "complex" of the two. The thing about cartilage is that it is "avascular", that means the tissue matrix does not have blood vessels going through it. Thus, and nutrient transport through cartilage must occur by the much slower process of diffusion. So, when taking chondroitin and glucosamine, wait about 6 months before saying with certainty whether or not it works.
All the obligatory caveats about alergic reactions apply, though I would say the likelihood for such is nil.
Make sure you see all the radiograms the doctor sees.
Best regards.
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BytorJr,
I must disagree with pbwe and warn you about spending a lot of time on a mode of treatment that, if you are accurately describing your spinal problems, will not help you at all.
I do agree with pbwe in that you should avoid surgery as long as possible. You can try injections from a Neurologist that uses a floroscope type setup. These can help tremendously but they are not a cure and only prolong the inevitable. Physical therapy will only help but not cure you and the improvement will not last and a "tens" unit is pretty much useless IMO.
You will need pain killers to put of any surgery as long as you can.
People that have never had serious back problems have no idea how easily it can destroy one's quality of life. I have osteroarthritis in C5-6-7 and in my lower back. Without going into all the other spine related problems let me just say that it really sucks. It really is difficult to say this but these problems I have are slowly turning me into the kind of person that I have always detested: I gimp that is becoming incapeable of doing all the things I used to do because everything hurts. I am really screwed because my conditions are not operable. They can't fix me.
Good luck BaytorJr. I hope they can "cure" you. Unfortunately I believe the medical business in this country really has no interest in cureing anybody. If you are cured you won't have to keep going back to them. They can't add to their portfoleo if they can't keep you in their waiting room.
Mike
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Thanks for your concerns. My doctor, and my initial Dr. Google has indicated that this IS actually do-able without surgery. And, better yet has almost the same success rate. Unfortunately, I moved from Dallas-Fort Worth where they have one of, if not the best, Back institutes in the world. VERY conservative, but were one of only 2 places in the US allowed to do clinical trials on disk replacement.
I'm voting this has been around and my inactivity since moving to NW Florida where the only gyms around are guys named Jim. Unless you want to drive 20-30 miles. Which...now given this, I shall.
As for the supplements. I did take glucosomine & chondroitin until I moved and forgot about it for a while...hmmmm, interesting isn't it. As for vitamin C, etc...well Linus Pauling was a big proponent of this and he won a Nobel prize when they were still real.
The other thing is that some of the disk tissue can actually be reabsorbed. I doubt very seriously I hurt my back watching CSI and 24 DVD's the last 2 months. Yard work...didn't lift anything weighing more than 5 pounds. So I'm going back to the old I'm atrophying away.
But, the statement that nobody understands is true. My folks are like very concerned, but bless my Mom's heart I don't think she even understands after undergoing hip replacement, knee reconstruction and then knee replacement. That's painful, I know, I broke quite a few bones in my younger days, but the back...you just don't appreciate it until it konks out.
Oh...and ya'll are right...MOST docs don't care..they want to suck more money out. My GP here even warned me about that, and my previous doc in the Tampa Bay area only laughed at me because she happened to be married to an engineer and either had a dad and/or father-in-law who was one too....so she was VERY conservative on her approach.
I've walked out of one docs office in DFW when they told me my blood pressure was too high...hmmm, white coat syndrome perhaps...or more likely, and Tom can appreciate this one, LBJ Freeway (635) when they were tying in the turnpike trying to get off on MacArthur Blvd!!! :) :).
Again, thanks for all the concern...I certainly appreciate it. I'll get better, if only to spite myself :). I can be rather ornery, and "us types" usually don't like to lose. :). See I'm thinking positive....right? :)
Oh...and what's a "tens" unit? I haven't been to PT yet. My back is feeling better, and I'm about ready to just start working out again. That's what the Texas Back Institute's book recommends...and after my bone spur on C6 hit me...well, I waited a week, went back to working out and haven't had a problem since...knock on wood...
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BytorJr,
A tens unit is an electronic device. It is a black box about 1X2X4 that has many different settings. There are some electrode strips about 3" long that you place in areas around where it hurts and the box provides electrical impulses at varying frequiences to the electrodes. If you get in to PT this unit will probably be suggested.
You seem to be doing pretty well. Your problems are not as chronic or constant as mine are. My back does not "go out" sometimes. It is out all the time.
We have quite an ecclectic group on this forum. I would expect this of Rohrbaugh owners though. :)
Mike
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I remember hearing when I was much younger from various people whom I thought were "old" at the time: "if you have your health, you have everything". As I get older I more fully understand the wisdom of the ancients. Youth is wasted on the young. That is a quote from some other wise one.
Sorry to go so far off topic on the forum. I like conversing with you deep thinkers more than the people I interact with in my offline life.
Mike
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I didn't think I was getting old until this year. This did it. :(.
And I had that TENS unit thingy on my first visit. Ok...it's just a fancy signal generator....did it help? Who knows. I do know the therapist was rather shocked I wasn't in as bad of pain as she wou ld have thought with as tight as my back muscles are. I still say it's from not working out that triggered it.
Of course, every "Xpert" at work says your back cannot atrophy in 2 weeks. Well, PT says so, Texas Back Institutes book says so...that's 2 folks trained in the field, vs let's see...a bunch of know-it-all fat folks at work who are obviously at peak health condition.
More than likely my problem has been because I've worked for tight companies who didn't provide better chairs which caused me (with my own stupidity as well) to sit poorly....Personally, we're going to see a lot more of this as more people do sedentary work instead of physical work. The body was not mean to sleep 8 hours, then sit another 8 or 10, then eat and repeat.
And I, like riffraff, enjoy these conversations sooooo much more than anybody I currently work with.
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Hi,
I just joined the forum, it's pretty good. I'm definitly of the "you need to shoot what you carry-on a regular basis". I carried a Seecamp for years and the only thing wrong with it was it didn't shoot a real bullet. The Rohrgaugh does.
I live in the country and go to town sometimes. I've used the gun most often on snakes. Yep, it ain't a target gun, but, it'll hit a snake at 10 feet.
I ain't real good on reading directins- and I've just carried and shoot the little gun. Umm, have cleaned it a time or two. It's always worked, does keyhole sometimes when shooting at paper.
Been meaning to order some springs, might do that today. I'm still useing the orginal ones-don't know how many rounds through it-some reloads. Never have understood why you shouldn't shoot reloads. Any decent reload it better than any factory load you can buy. Also, you can load light and not work the gun as hard.
By the way, I've been to several training sites Thunder Ranch, Chapman, and some more (not with the Rohrgaugh). But, did go thru a BUG (Back Up Gun) class with Tom Givens with it. We only shot about 100 rounds in this class-just 3 hours with about 1.5 hours on the range. Didn't clean it, just pulled out of my pocket and went to work with it. Did just great, nary a boble. Ooops, wrong about that; it did a failure to feed, Tom Givens wanted to use it for a demostation gun. All the students in the class shot it. it did fail to work when on the students loaded .40 Cal. ammo in it. The ammo fit just fine in the mag, but would not chamber. Made a hell of mess trying to get things undone. Other than that, it did just great.
It's the gun in my pocket all the time-S.N. # 1XX.
bill
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Bill:
Welcome to the campfire. It sounds like you may have one of the early "Farmingdales" there -- same "litter" as mine. ;)
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Just found out about the R9 and from reading this have a couple comments/questions.
1. I belong between the shoot a lot and carry a lot group. I currently have a Seecamp LWS32 (over 15 years of daily carry). I shot about 300 rds initially to be comfortable with the recoil and reliability. Then about 30-50 a year to cycle magazines and clean the LWS32. Still have 100 rounds left of the initially purchased 1000 rds of Silvertips.
2. Spare magazines are a must for me. Minimum for a carry gun is 3. One in the gun, one carried for resupply and one resting (actually a spare in case one of the carried magazines get damaged). I have had function problems that generally are related to magazines so 3 is the minimum.
3. Spring replacement is not a killer, 100 rounds is not much in normal circumstances, replacing a spring every 2 years is acceptable. From the comments it appears that Rohrbaugh honors their Lifetime warranty so I don't expect any critical problems with the R9 that won't be repaired by the factory. Is that the opinion of the Forum?
4. I purchase defensive ammunition in 500 to 1000 rd lots. The first 100 to 200 are test fired to insure that the weapon works with the round. Then the rest is stockpiled to be sure that manufacturing changes do not decrease the reliability of my weapon. Does anyone else do this?
5. I don't really care about the looks. Heck I purchased one of the first Glocks because I was impressed with the funtioning of it and have never been disappointed with my purchase. But I do find that internal cleaning up and trigger jobs do enhance the shooting experience. Does anyone know of gunsmithes that do this work on the R9
Thanks
Hopefully will get the chance to handle a R9 in the near future and decide if it will fit my needs.
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I can't imagine 50 rounds/month would hurt the gun, as long as it's kept up w.
Recoil springs don't cost very much, certainly not compared to ammo now -- seems reasonable to me...
Personally, I like shooting 22s at the range, esp. 22 versions of my defense guns -- still get practice drawing, shooting while moving, etc, but w.o. the recoil, and at a fraction of the expense -- I went back to shooting my 22 rifle everyday (haven't done that since HS) and I've been amazed how much my marksmanship has improved.
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As for the back problem -- a GOOD chiropractor is almost impossible to find, and invaluable... Mine, along w. a glute-ham bench and a reverse-hyper machine have done wonders for my back and neck.
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Just found out about the R9 and from reading this have a couple comments/questions.
* * * But I do find that internal cleaning up and trigger jobs do enhance the shooting experience. Does anyone know of gunsmithes that do this work on the R9
Thanks
Hopefully will get the chance to handle a R9 in the near future and decide if it will fit my needs.
I missed your post when it was made and take this opportunity to welcome you to the Forum. If you haven't already purchased an R9, I urge you to do so. I think you will find that it is quite simply the ultimate in pocket pistols.
As for improving the R9's trigger, mine had a silky smooth pull of about eight pounds when it came out of the box. That was nearly four years (and a lot of trigger pulls) ago. It still has a silky smooth pull of about eight pounds, which I find to be just right for a DAO pocket pistol of this type. The trigger assembly is brilliantly simply in design and is held in place by the right grip panel. I personally would not want a gunsmith to attempt to change mine in any way.
Welcome again, and give us a report if you "join the Club."
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I fully agree with Richard and a gunsmith has done action
jobs on most of my others but not the R9; it just doesn't
need it, especially for carry purposes.
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If and when you buy a R9 you will never look back. The trigger is great and smooth about 8 pounds like Richard said. No need for a gunsmith to work on it. The best thing about the R9 is it's a pocket pistol in 9mm. I also come with a Seecamp background having carried a .32 for over 20 years. Both Rohrbaugh and Seecamp have customer service done right. Tom