The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: flyandscuba on February 27, 2008, 01:08:33 AM
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I ran across this new ammunition while at the Bass Pro (Outdoor World) in Hollywood, FL. I'm told Winchester is making it only for Bass Pro (unconfirmed). It appears to be a standard "WWB" type hollow point bullet design -- but it has a black Lubalox coating.
I picked up a couple of boxes since it is standard pressure -- for possible use in my Rohrbaugh R9. The ballistics table on the back of the box shows 1190fps and 362 ft/lbs. at the muzzle and 1071 fps and 293 ft/lbs. at 50 yards.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/flyandscuba/DSCF1279.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/flyandscuba/DSCF1281.jpg)
Price through February 28th is 13.67 per 50 -- after the 28th, regular price will be $15.49 They also offer a FMJ "Practice ammunition" version -- complete with the Lubalox for a little over $11 per 50 regular price.
Product code SXZ9P
This looks like it might be a good candidate for a little wetpack testing. One of the things oldgranpa and I discovered in the last testing session -- was that the less expensive WWB personal defense ammo was darn near as effective in terms of penetration and expansion as the high priced stuff.
I haven't run any of the stuff through my R9 to test for function -- but plan to do so soon and will post a range report.
Information on Lubalox available here:
http://www.winchester.com/news/newsview.aspx?storyid=220
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Looking forward to hearing how this runs in your pup.. 8)
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Flyandscuba:
Thanks the notice on the new Winchester SXZ ammunition. I'll be looking forward to seeing any wetpack test results which you and OG obtain. Your past test results have been extraordinarily helpful -- even convincing me to change my 9mm and .380 ACP carry ammunition.
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This may be a dumb question, but is there a standard barrel length ammo manufacturers use to test their products when they post ballastics data?
Rick
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This may be a dumb question, but is there a standard barrel length ammo manufacturers use to test their products when they post ballastics data?
Rick
Here's a link to a discussion of that topic on another forum:
http://outdoorsbest.zeroforum.com/zerothread?id=699764&postid=8620555
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RickP,
Yes, absolutley. For the 9mm it is about right at 4" give or take a tad. Some manufacturers have developed loads for shorter barrels and reduced muzzle flash. This info. will be touted in the product info write up and on the box.
Keep an eye out on Glasser. They are in the process of working up a short barreled 9mm load with a Barnes bullet of approx 88gr. This should be an interesting load. Barnes solid copper bullets are top notch. They will never shed their jacket and tend NOT to fragment.
Mike
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88 gr bullet? Might as well carry a .380 -- I'll pass on the uber exotics... Now if the Corbon DPX 115 gr Barnes load was offered in standard pressure by Corbon (owner of Glaser) -- I'd be interested.
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Thanks, Richard and Mike :)
Rick
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flyandscuba,
I think you are correct in that what I was referring to was in fact Corbon.
About your opinion on the bullet weight thing. You are showing your age. There is always a trade off in ANY caliber. Heavier bullet weight means lower velocities, lighter bullet weight means higher velocities. If we leave the Ball bullet out of everything then there are some important subjects to discuss. I find your distaste for an 88gr bullet from an short barreled gun to be antique. Keep packing your model 1911 and leave the real carry guns to everyone else.
My opinions only, Mike
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Actually, my typical CCW is a 9mm (usually the R9 because attire limits me to pocket carry) -- but it is loaded with the 115 gr Gold Dots. In the frequently belt-carried HK P7/P7M8 -- I go with the Winchester Ranger T SXT +P+ 127gr load.
Search and look through some of the wetpack ballistic testing shared by oldgranpa and myself here and on other forums and see where the basis of my choices come from.
In any self defense load, consistent expansion can never be guaranteed. Therefore, shot placemernt and adequate penetration are the most important aspects of a self defense combo.
The very light short barrel 9mm load you suggest most likely will not have adequate penetration for my comfort. The speed a projectile hits the target (especially in a handgun) is of little value if the projectile never gets to a vital structure (penetration). If it works for you -- that's great. I know my chosen loads will do the job -- if I do my part by getting the bullet to the proper place...
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flyandscuba,
We do most definately agree that shot placement is the absolute most important thing.
Mike
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Well, I didn't think I'd see such a pointed answer to the 380 comment on this board. I too think that may be a little light; but I'll wait and see. Personally, I'm not as sold on Corbon as a lot of folks. They don't seem to crimp their ammo too well from what I've experienced; and, I've noticed a few loads seem to have lower powder than other loads even within the same box. Perhaps their quality control has gotten better in the last 3 years, but for a while there, I didn't care for it and started using Hornady and ATK/Speer.
I'd like to see velocity out of the barrel for this new DPX round so I could determine energy for that load. While I never went with 230g out of my short barrel 45 strictly because I knew I'd be losing velocity, I never went to 165g or 180g either. I figured 200+P would be a good solution - this was long before Gold Dot short barrel came out for 45. Mass does have some advantages (at least that's what I tell myself when I go buy new pants :) ).
As for the short barrel ammo, most of it is not traveling fast at all. The main difference from what I've read (off the illustrious internet) is that, using Gold Dot for example, the bullet itself is designed to open at a lower velocity and the flash is less because they put a powder that burns completely in the short barrel length. Just go look at how slow a 45 Gold Dot short barrel is going....it'll shock you. Furthermore, for Speer's Short Barrel for 45 is 230g, NOT some lightweight bullet. So I guess Speer should only develop ammunition for old outdated 1911s.
That said in all seriousness, whatever one feels comfortable with and feeds reliably is what one should carry. I hardly believe the comment that was made was so out of line that he should go back to his 45 and leave the rest of us to carry real guns.
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I agree, Bytor; that kind of hard edge and personal affront
has no place on this forum. Fly is to be commended for his
objective and classy response to Mike's comments.
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I agree, Bytor; that kind of hard edge and personal affront has no place on this forum. Fly is to be commended for his
objective and classy response to Mike's comments.
Hear, hear!
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F&S is an HK owner...cool. I'm REALLy thinking of picking up a P7 from CDNN, not an M8 (dream on $$).
Thanks to you guys as well, I wasn't sure if my comments may have been misconstrued.
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Well I guess im ready for the retirement home then cuz my carry guns a .....revolver :o I love my .44 special snubbie. But I should be dragged kicking an screaming in to more modern times with a 1911 I guess....NAH :P My R-9s about the only 9mm Id carry and thats strictly a pocket gun for warm weather/deep concealment. It likes the 147 grain SXTs so thats what I feed it. Since it seems to keyhole i dont mind a longer bullet to tumble more. Id guess Fly an Scubas +P+ 9mm screaming out of an H&K Polygonal barrels a formidable foe to be sure, But my opinion of the 9mmX19 leads me to believe if those extremes are needed why not go with a .38 super or .357 Sig? Oh well, Guess Im just a big bore kinda guy. BUT for pocket carry, I love my 9mm R-9!
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I like a .44 Special, too; a very sweet shooter. What I really
love to shoot is an 1873 44-40.
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I agree with the sentiments. F&S's opinions are hardly antiquated, and his input is always welcome here.
If you wouldn't say it to a guest in your home over dinner, no need to say it here. Enough said.
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Interesting trivia... If you're packing a 1911 (I don't currently own one) and someone exclaim's that you are "old school" whilst they have 9mm chambered firearm on their belt -- smile and remind them that the 9mm (9x19) cartridge was introduced in 1902 -- while the .45 ACP didn't come on the scene until much later -- in 1905... ;D
Capt.koolaid -- if I could have an HK P7-series pistol chambered in .357 Sig I would be a very happy man. Rest assured, that I'd buy one as soon as I could. At one time, I contemplated altering an "extra" P7M13 I had in inventory to a .357 Sig by having the chamber reamed out for the bottle-neck cartridge. At the same time, altering the chamber face to accept the .40 S&W case head like exists on the P7M10 slide. It would have taken quite a bit of work -- that I couldn't personally make happen due to the lack of the necessary tooling (not to mention, lack of skill). Also, it would mean cannabalizing a $1900 P7M13 with no guarantee of success....something I just couldn't bring myself to do.
But, the creation of a 10+1 capacity HK P7-series pistol with a "normal"-sized slide chambered in .357 Sig would have been a perfect pistol for me.
(I still have that P7M13 sitting in the safe -- if any readers know of a gunsmith willing to take on the task...)
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All the great pistol combat shooters use a 1911, just go to a match. Tom
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Ok, you guys have hurt my feelings.
I apologize for my bluntness, although I think you know by now that is just me.
Yes, I would say that same thing to a guest at my home for dinner. The thing is when one is face to face and can hear tonal inflections, see facial expressions and body postures, everything usually takes on a whole different meaning.
I had very little training in the Art of the written word. I will probably spend the rest of my life trying to master it.
Mike
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riff: I didnt mean to hurt your feelings! Im old so i guess im old school by default ;) but....one sure fire way to tic people off is talk politics, religion, or the "1911"! I enjoy your posts :D
Fly: The only H&K I own is an old (go figure) VP70. Being a "wheel wolf" who stopped playing with plastic guns when I was 12 I know its out of my character but I cant seem to get rid of it cuz I LOVE IT! hands down the most reliable semiauto Ive owned! Anyway Im not up on H&Ks but I know (and you may have already mentioned the model so I apologize if this is old news) that H&K did make a small run of .40 cal squeezers. Im sure SOMEBODY SOMEWERE Barstow? makes a .357 Sig barrel for it. It wouldnt be "factory" and probably not a poly barrel but being a fellow scuba nut im thinking you probably have the resources available to make it happen ;D
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Im not up on H&Ks but I know (and you may have already mentioned the model so I apologize if this is old news) that H&K did make a small run of .40 cal squeezers. Im sure SOMEBODY SOMEWERE Barstow? makes a .357 Sig barrel for it. It wouldnt be "factory" and probably not a poly barrel but being a fellow scuba nut im thinking you probably have the resources available to make it happen ;D
The P7 series have fixed barrels that require some work in changing. I doubt it would be cost effective to make after market barrels for them. With that, the round doesn't enter directly into the barrel. The chamber is fixed to the frame and is fluted. I'm not a gun smith but I'm sure that would cause issues for the .357 sig's necked down casing.
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oops! ;D Told ya I wasnt up on H&Ks! My VP70s got a fixed barrel but its a blowback design without a poly barrel. The only gas retarded pistol I owned was a steyr G.B. and its barrels fixed too. Guess Ill go for a 1911...in .38 Super! :D Im still trying to figure out how the Koch is pronounced in H&K but I almost bought a squeezer a while back when someone said they were gonna be discontinued and dry up. I still see alot of em at gunshows tho and they seem to have a cult following. Neat looking guns!
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Im still trying to figure out how the Koch is pronounced in H&K
Some quick HK 101. The "ch" in Koch sounds like a "k" but with an h sound attached to it. So like "coke" with a German inflection on the end.
You can drop the "&" and make it plain HK. :D
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Fly,
Before I became distracted I meant to thank you for that
excellent post on the thread Winchester ammo. Everyrthing
you said was right on the money and the timing was perfect
for me and the Bass Pro Shop.
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... I apologize for my bluntness, although I think you know by now that is just me. ... Mike
It takes a big man to say he's sorry - so good for you, RiffRaff, for doing so. But you don't need to spend the rest of your life "trying to master" written communication. Just recognize that saying "my opinion only" does not make it OK to say (as you often do) the equivalent of: 'your favorite firearm stinks' or 'your opinions are stupid and out-of-date.'
This forum almost always produces a friendly and thoughtful dialog. You clearly understand that you are "blunt." So please take a moment a moment to re-read and give some thought to how others will react to what you say before you hit the post button.
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I'm REALLy thinking of picking up a P7 from CDNN, not an M8 (dream on $$).
Don't regret not getting the M8 - the plain ol' P7 PSP is a much more comfortable & concealable carry arm - no irritating rub from the US-style mag release. With a minimum of practice, pulling a mag with the Euro-release is quick and very secure. Sure the American release and free-dropping mags lead to impressive times in "combat" competition shooting, but in TRW, at the moment of the fan-fecees interface, reliability and familiarity are everything while being able to shave a few tenths off a mag change isn't likely to matter.
In my experience with a number of PSPs of widely varying vintages, they are consistently dependable, meticulously manufactured, stunningly accurate and sweet-shooting pistols. So grab a humble PSP while you still can: if CDNN (800 588 9500) still has A-grade pistols (below), they are pristine, elite weapons at less than $700, while very clean B-grades are only about $600.
(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd310/light-stilled/HK%20P7%20PSP/HKP7PSPright168xx.jpg)
(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd310/light-stilled/HK%20P7%20PSP/HKP7PSPleft168xx.jpg)
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Novanglus and all.
Whoah there dude. You misunderstand. I will post my opinions and if anyone doesn't like them then they can k*** m* a**. My opinions are my opinions and I will converse with whomever wishes to converse in order to modify my opinions but do not confuse my apologies with whatever it is you THINK my apologies mean.
Mike
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...they can k*** m* a**...
Mike
Is that k*** (KICK)?
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Novanglus and all. Whoah there dude. You misunderstand. I will post my opinions and if anyone doesn't like them then they can k*** m* a**. My opinions are my opinions and I will converse with whomever wishes to converse in order to modify my opinions but do not confuse my apologies with whatever it is you THINK my apologies mean. Mike
Thanks, RiffRaff! Since you insist - I acknowledge that I stand corrected: you aren't a big man but just another angry man with a chip on his shoulder. You aren't "blunt' because you haven't mastered "the Art of the written word" - you're just rude, and you clearly enjoy it. How sad.
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Well, I feel a little guilty now making this a heated battle. I guess I thought it was a little harsh of Riffraff to comment like that, so I tried to give a little supporting information to my argument why I believed he was wrong.
Had I thought this would have started a "contest" I wouldn't have brought it up. So, to all I'm sorry for all this.
To Riffraff, hey, I'm not a master of communication either :(. I've written some pretty terse and sharp emails in my day; most (not all) of which I now regret and would like to take back some of the "temperment" exhibited in them. After 40+ years, I MAY be getting the hang of it...but I'm afraid I shall never master it.
Novanglus, well, I'm pretty set on getting a P7 now. Now, if my stupid Visa card company could get their act together and get me a card I'd be in "bidness" again. I ordered a new one 2 weeks ago, not here...mine expires in 35 minutes. So...I had to order ANOTHER one....dang!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe I'll come to my senses by the time it gets here...and actually order one :).
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Mike, I just don't understand why you feel the need to confront folks on the forum. And also state that your opinion is the only correct one. We all have thoughts about various subjects that we might think are correct but don't go around hitting people in the face to show everyone that we are right. No one wants to fight you over various threads, in fact some have left the forum because of you. We just ask that you settle down a bit and maybe keep an open mind on other opinions posted and give yours in nice and easy matter. Tom
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A good discussion consists of people expressing their opinions AND their supporting evidence AND are seeking to improve their knowledge so that their beliefs more closely match reality. Everyone benefits.
So... If someone (in a polite discussion) makes assertions you disagree with, you CAN reply with counter-assertions but you OUGHT TO reply with factual evidence.
Telling a close friend "f*** y**" while showing a friendly smile could be considered friendly banter in person, but the same expression in an email is the on-line equivalent of telling the guy in the bar "Let's step outside" while rolling up your sleeves.
I learned my lesson when complaining about the limitations of AOL's service, when I told (in email) their service rep "evolve or die!". He responded that what I said could be interpreted as a threat. And he was right. I've tried to be more careful since then.
By the way, the first time I read the line, I thought the first word was "kick" too. ;D
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All good thoughts on communication. I have learned the hard
way, also, to delay the send button when I am upset about
something. Also, not that it applies here, but never, never
hit the send button after a couple of suds--again, the hard
way lesson. The written word is like a fired round: very
difficult to retract once it is sent.
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Jack_Bauer,
Yes I probably need an a** kicking.
tracker,
You posted what should be the golden rule of computing, never use the send button while drinking beer.
just an opinionated, argry white guy here, Mike
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Thanks, Mike; maybe they call that EWI. Since none of us
is perfect, I think maybe we have kicked you around enough
and all learned something in the process. I know I have.
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Naw, I usually deserve what I get. I don't really ever intend to dish it out so to speak but I have learned to take my lumps if others think I am wrong.
Mike