The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: sdlsaginaw on May 09, 2009, 01:33:28 PM
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I pretty much settled on the 115gr being the round of choice in the R9, but it appears alot of talk is happening around the 147gr again. I imagine the 147gr is being revisited since it's becoming the only weight you can still find. I had avoided the 147gr due to earlier reports of keyholing.
I know consensus says that "heavier is better", but is this really true in such a small pistol as the R9? Is the R9 able to get the 147gr up to speed and stable? Is the rifling sufficent for this weight? Were the early reports just sour grapes?
I know I don't want to spend a buck a round for a high-end controlled expansion JHP so it can hit its mark sideways.. :P
Anyway, just wondering if anyone has found some good science out there regarding "more weight" vs "more velocity" in a short barreled pistol, and how well this applies to the R9. Also, has anyone heard feedback from the R brothers on this topic?
[update] I just found this discussion on the forum http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/YaBB.cgi?board=R9S;action=display;num=1155009072
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sdlsaginaw:
That link certainly takes me back a couple or three years! Since then I rejoined the 147-grain school of thought based on my own experimentation at the range. However, anecdotal recitations unsupported by photographic evidence are of little value except to the one making them. Perhaps I should do another round of testing, this time taking my camera along, and see if I reach the same conclusion again.
Thanks for resurrecting an interesting topic.
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I cannot find 9MM ammo in 115 or 124 grain so I went with what I could find: 147 grain (Golden Sabre & Hornady TAP).
Expensive? Yes; but it is also the best shooting experience I have had with the four (4) R9s I have owned.
I am unfamiliar with the study that may have dealt with esoteric aspects of 147 grain usage. I do, however, know that these bullets go boom and make me happy.
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That's what counts! :) :)
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An interesting note.
When I queried the gal at Rohrbaugh (Maria?, maybe) about what the problem was with +p ammo, she didn't really give me a straight answer, but ended the conversation with "and no 147 grain loads either".
I think that the general trend toward 147 grain loads is an over reaction to the failings of the 115 grain loads. The majority of the 115 gr loads don't meet FBI minimum penetration standards, so I think that many LE departments just swung comletely the other way and a lot of civilians simply followed their lead (just personal opinion -- I've looked at a bunch of the penetration results, but I'm just guessing on the reaction only because most of the 124 grs do meet the same standards).
In my own R9s I'd be pretty hesistant to use the 147 grs, not due to any weight-associated recoil or gun battering but simply bullet length. I tried several different 124 grain loads when I first tested my pistol. Even some of the longer 124 grain loads (i.e. deeper HP designs, like the Federal Bonded) showed very noticeable keyholing at 7 and 15 yds. Since the 147 gr bullets are even longer, I would expect the keyholing to only be worse.
Keyholing might be great in a really high velocity round like 5.56 where it would likely contribute to fragmentation, I don't believe that it's desirable at the substantially lower velocities of a handgun round.
I've settled on the 124 gr Speer GDs, myself, and buy a box or two whenever I find them. They are one of the loads that meet FBI test standards (albeit at higher, service pistol velocities) and don't show any keyholing in my copy of the R9.
As a side note, I was attemping to research the twist rate a bit and came up short. Standard 9MM rifling is 1:10. Does anyone know what the R9 barrel twist is?
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Karl knows the answer to that one. One source said in comparing a
Kahr PM-9 to the R-9 that the Kahr had a 1-10" twist while the R9
"appeared" to have about half that rate. If true, this would reduce
the kick but might tend to keyhole with heavier weight bullets.
This is just subjective speculation.
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Bill's comments and Tracker's response are relevant and interesting. I will gladly try the 124 grain 9MM. Just tell me where I can buy them.
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Interesting quotes from the rebuttal to the Gun Tests article:
"Our rifling is a 1:16 right hand twist - a standard for 9mm in the industry"
and
"Due to breech size, the feed ramp is at a higher angle than other larger pistols and subsequently cannot feed the longer 147-grain truncated cone."
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Interesting quotes from the rebuttal to the Gun Tests article:
"Our rifling is a 1:16 right hand twist - a standard for 9mm in the industry"
and
"Due to breech size, the feed ramp is at a higher angle than other larger pistols and subsequently cannot feed the longer 147-grain truncated cone."
Thank you. The first part answers my question about twist rate -- although AFAIK it's no standard in the industry for 9MM. I never did go beyond my Sig manuals, but every Sig model that is available in 9MM has a 1:10 twist for that 9MM.
It is, however, a psuedo standard for the higher velocity cartridges that happen to use 9MM bullets, like the 357Sig and 38 Super (sort of a 9MM, anyway). However, these get their stabilizing RPM by pushing the bullet through a shallower twist at a faster speed.
That twist would account for the problems with stabilizing any of the longer bullets (and it is actually length rather than weight that we worry about for twist) -- especially at the slower speeds we get from the R9.
The second comment is interesting given that a number of people here report using 147 grain, presumably HPs, that should actually be longer than any solid, truncated cone or otherwise, because they have to make up for the hole.
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Bill's comments and Tracker's response are relevant and interesting. I will gladly try the 124 grain 9MM. Just tell me where I can buy them.
I can't give you a specific answer to that. I've found mine by just checking every gun shop that I go into. Frequently enough, here in TX, I've still found a box or two of the Speer to keep up with the limited times I shoot the R9.
That said, the prices have been double (or more) what I paid for Speer 357Sig when I loaded up on those before the craze started.
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FWIW, and being that I could only find Hornady TAP ammo in 147 gr, that's what I've used so far. I haven't shot paper at past about 12 yards, but have not seen any evidence of keyholing and they have functioned and fired fine. I tend to ride with the heavy bullet camp anyway.
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It gets even more interesting when you factor in the OAL data of various brands and loads which Chris posted in the FAQ site at this link:
http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/rohrbaugh/basefile/tumbling.htm
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I'm keeping my backorder in for the 147 gr. Golden Sabres.
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I happened onto the 147 grain because that is all I have been able to find, for which I have commented on a different string.
There is a small local gunshow this weekend and I am bracing for 9MM prices, (if they have any available), in the recommended Silver Tip or Gold Dot. If so, I will buy 115, 124 & 147 grain ammo.
I had never used the 147 grain bullet in an R9 and my first empirical concern was the bullet length. That concern went away as soon as I pulled the trigger.
Had it not been for Richard's posts (as to the virtue of 147 grain Golden Sabre) I may have passed up this opportunity. As it is, I have 200 rounds (only) of 147 grain and am grateful to have it, given what is going on.
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One reference which I have found informative on this general subject is the report entitled “Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness” by Special Agent Urey W. Patrick of the FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. Although this report was published twenty years ago in 1989, it remains, as stated in its Forward, "an important contribution to what should be an ongoing discussion" involving the use of handguns for self defense. Pages 11 and 12 of the report discussing criteria for selecting ammunition are particularly interesting.
Although the report was created for law enforcement use, it is now available in the public domain at the following web site:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm .
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It gets even more interesting when you factor in the OAL data of various brands and loads which Chris posted in the FAQ site at this link:
http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/rohrbaugh/basefile/tumbling.htm
Richard,
That is an interesting reference. Thanks for posting it.
I had forgotten about the freebore, but it clearly is another part of the puzzle.
The other part that I've been unable to find is some ambitious sole who has pulled various brands and weights of bullets apart to measure OL of just the bullet, itself. IMO that is the major influence on stability, but might be tempered by the fact that the R9 is the first pistol I've explored with such freebore.
You other reference is a good read also for anyone interested in the actual teminal effects of the ammo. While that one is a bit dated (only in that it doesn't include newer ammos) the work has been continued more-or-less in the terminal effects forum of (IIRC) tacticalforums.com by a guy named Dr. G. B. Roberts. You do need to subscribe to that one for access.
The whole business of tumbling/keyholing is a little bit more serious than some of the posts that I've seen in the forum would suggest.
The FBI minimum penetration standard is 12", predicated upon being able to hit vitals that would disable an attacker.
The performance of bullets for adequate penetration is based upon (and measured) entering the person or gelatin perpendicular. That is, with minimal frontal area drag in the medium.
Once a bullet starts keyholing it will try to penetrate the medium (flesh, gelatin, etc) with potentially much more frontal area, and drag and not live up to its potential. This obviously, depends on the degree of keyholing. The extreme would be a bullet that had turned a full 90 degrees and entered sideways. That would probably double frontal area and drag so that a bullet that should penetrate 12-14" might only go 6-7" and be tha much less effective.
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Massad Ayoob wrote a book about concealed carry, copyright 2008, and in it he devoted a chapter to Defense Loads Of Choice - The Word From The Street. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0896896110
I mention this because, with our R9's short barrel we're seeing lower velocities than a standard-issue SIG or Glock, and since we can't fire +P or +P+ we're really on the short end of the stick velocity-wise. Our R9's are not going to throw a 9mm at 1250+ FPS.
Anyway, Massad talks about how "defensive ammunition choice is about picking what works best to neutralize armed and dangerous human beings before they can main or murder". He further states "scientific testing of ammo in ballistic gelatin can help predict bullet performance in the field, but at the end of the day, it is the performance and not the prediction that will matter".
Massad is involved with the International Law Enforcement Educators and Trainers Association, the International Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors Association, and the International Homicide Investigators, who have all studied many years of police shootings where police issue ammunition was used. He says "police duty calibers and loads have the strongest data bases to learn from".
In 9mm Luger - he states "in the late 1980's through most of the 1990's, 147-grain hollowpoints of conventional copper jacketed construction were the trendy issue rounds. They worked spotily - sometimes they expanded, and sometimes they just punched narrow little through-and-through holes like ball ammo - and as a result, most departments that used this stuff either switched to more powerful calibers, or went to 9mm ammo that was going faster, with lighter bullets".
He mentions "the Illinois State Police 115-grain standard JHP launched at 1300 fps proved itself to be the most decisive man-stopper available - it still works great".
"Other loadings have emerged that have the same decisive stopping power in 9mm. They include Winchester's 127-grain Ranger series +P+ at 1250 FPS, and Speer's Gold Dot 124-grain +P at the same velocity".
"Chicago PD switched to the 124-grain +P after multiple dismal stopping failures with 147-grain subsonic".
"Orlando cops are issued P226 SIG's and 127-grain +P+ Winchester, and many shootings since, they've found it to be as effective as any handgun caliber could be".
And then this - "Some folks have bought into the theory that the 147-grain subsonic has been so widely recommended by authority figures, it must be good. The fact is, there's a new generation of 147-grain subsonic that is pretty darn good. It utilizes new-generation high-tech expanding bullet technology expressly engineered to make the bullets open up at velocities below the speed of sound. These include CCI Speer Gold Dot, the Federal HST, and Winchester Ranger".
"Amarillo, Texas Police report excellent results with their issue load for those officers who choose 9mm pistols, the 147-grain Gold Dot".
And he sums it up - "still, the faster bullets seem to be the way to go. There is much more corollary tissue damage around the wound channels with the faster 9mm's, with medical examiners documenting "mascerated" flesh, that is, tissue chopped up like burrito filling. You don't see that with subsonic rounds, even though a high-tech modern 147-grain may actually expand very slightly more than a lighter 9mm bullet, simply because it has "more lead to spread".
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In terms of defensive loads, I often times agree more with Ayoob than with Dr. G. B. Roberts (who IMO places too much emphasis on penetration depth without regard for velocity) and very much agree with that last quote.
That's why my normal carry is 357Sig and the 9MM R9 is more of a back-up or intermittent, when-I can't-carry-the-full-size pistol for me.
The dilemma for me in the R9 is it seems that we get a bit of the worst of both worlds (so to speak) ammo-wise. On the one hand, we can't use +P ammo for strength reasons and the short barrel really limits the velocity of any standard load, which negates the velocity advantage of the lighter loads. However, on the other hand, the heavier bullets -- these days designed for expansion and effectiveness at the slower speeds -- may not shoot well in the R9 because of the barrel twist.
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Which is why I'd like to see an R9 offered in a steel frame, capable of +P ammunition. Sure it would weigh more but it would be so much more versatile.
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Once again, Richard is the Answer Man. I saved the document to my Favorites and have read it.
This is not light reading but it is compelling and ought be read by anyone who responsibly carries a weapon capable of severely wounding or terminating another being.
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Good information!
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My short take on all of this excellent information is that there are
only a few things that are important in disabling an opponent with
a firearm; viz.,
1. Shot placement.
2. Penetration depth.
3. A measure of mass to get the job done.
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All of which is covered in Richard's attachment, thank you very much.
As to the posts calling for stainless frame and +P cartridge, I have seen these type of "wish list" posts over the years and while I concur with the desire, I don't think they are realistic.
The R9's role, as I understand it, is limited and supported by staff and owners who can only do so much.
Rohrbaugh is not a large entity like S&W and they do what they can do, within limited parameters, and they do a supurb job within those limitations.
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And I would add that the Rohrbaugh quality leaves the present day
S&W in the dust.