The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: HankHill on March 28, 2009, 04:41:35 PM
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So I decided to have some custom work done after seeing Cory's sweet pup. The gun looks great but now it will not feed the second round. The gun locks open and the used shell is still in the barrel
I have tried gold dots, silver tips, and WWB with the same results. It doesnt matter if I put two rounds or six in the magazine same resuts. The only internal work was I had the feed ramp polished.
I tried the basics cleaning, lubing, new ammo all with the same results. Any thoughts ?
(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss2/hankhill_pics/rohrbaugh010.jpg)
(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss2/hankhill_pics/rohrbaugh008.jpg)
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Hate to read of your troubles? Was the gun refinished at all? Was the extractor ever taken out and then reinstalled durning the modifications?
Have you tried just loading one round and shooting it to see if it would throw it out without any other rounds in the mag?
I assume it worked fine before the custimizing and had been shot some. How old is the gun? Is it possibly due for a new spring?
Corey
PS What type paint was used on the front site? Looks great!
Do you have other pics you could share with us?
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Assuming you started with a new 2nd generation recoil spring and good, late-design magazine springs here are a couple of thoughts:
1. Those comp ports look pretty large - large enough to bleed enough gas off that the slide velocity is noticeably slowed. If that's the case, a used - weaker - recoil spring would help.
From the top side the workmanship looks great, but check the top of the barrel and the underside of the slide to make there are no burrs or sharp edges that can impede the action of the barrel / slide during firing.
2. Timing is critical on any auto-loading pistol, and small guns like the R9S just don't have much "margin for error".
BTW: Before getting set up with 2nd generation recoil and mag springs, I had a few failures to eject like you have pictured in your post. Without a slide lock, that sort of jam in the R9 is a bit of a bear to clear.
I came up with a simple clearing routine: Push down on the rim of the top round in the magazine with a pencil, pen, twig, even a spent shell (but not your fingertip!). The slide will go into battery, or close enough, for you to remove the magazine and rack the slide to dump out the spent casing in the chamber.
Good luck. Your gun looks great, but until you get it to reliably go "BANG!" it's just an expensive rock. :P
And welcome to the forum.
Steve
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Bummer on the problems. Here's my 2 cents:
I just did a test on my ejector using an empty casing in the barrel and empty clip in the frame. Manually loading the empty case was a challenge, and once done you need to press the back of the ejector to get the slide to close the last little bit.
Pulling the slide slowly back, the ejector held the casing all the way out of the barrel. It finally flicked the casing near the end of slide travel. You might do the same test and compare results. This should tell you if something is wrong with the ejector, or if it's a new timing problem during actual fire.
Regarding your front green dot, I like it. Is that just painted on, or did you get a dimple drilled/machined into the sight? I'm going to get a dot added to my front sight very soon. Do you have a closeup of it?
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I think SSlater is right on the money with points 1 and 2. This
type of jam is frustrating but not uncommon. I experienced the
same thing before some of the evolutionary changes like new
springs, etc.
However, I do not think it is advisable to port any self defense
weapon: loss of velocity; change of dynamics; and possible
danger to anyone in the way of the hot gasses, etc. My gunsmith,
a master of his craft, educated me somewhat on this issue.
Not to step on anyone's toes but if this were my carry weapon
I would consider changing the slide.
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Thanks for the replies so far.
If I fire the gun with only 1 round in the chamber and the mag empty, the round will not eject.
If I load the magazine and manually rack the slide the bullets will eject each time.
The gun was refinished so I am guessing the extractor was removed.
I will post a few more pics soon.
Is it hard to remove the extractor to check the spring?
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The gun did fire fine before the work and it only has around 300 fired.
The spring was changed at 250 rounds
(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss2/hankhill_pics/rohrbaugh014.jpg)
(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss2/hankhill_pics/rohrbaugh013.jpg)
(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss2/hankhill_pics/rohrbaugh012.jpg)
(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss2/hankhill_pics/rohrbaugh011.jpg)
(http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss2/hankhill_pics/rohrbaugh015.jpg)
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The gun looks excellant, and I really like the sight dots. I am thinking of having some of the mods done to mine but I am not a fan of porting SD weapons, in low light there is enough flash at the muzzle without adding blast coming out the top of the barrel. Just my 2 cents. Good luck with your problem.
John
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Almost Twins! Looks great!!!!! I like the stipleing, should have done that with mine. It would have cost half as much and done the same as the checkering I got. The green paint looks realy good to.
As far as the jams go it has got to be somthing simple (I guess). The porting was done just like my custom and mine works great so hopefully things will work out soon.
Corey
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First of all, welcome to the Forum!
The custom work on your R9 looks first rate, but I'm betting that Steve and Tracker have diagnosed its problem -- that the porting is altering the timing of the slide's recoil operation. Somehow, you need to restore the balance between the tension of your recoil and magazine springs. The gunsmith who did your porting work would probably have some ideas. Meanwhile, since you're already out there in "uncharted territory," if it were my R9 I might consider "sacrificing" some springs for experimentation. I think I might first cut one coil from the open end of the recoil spring and see what effect that had on the pistol's operation. If the jam still occurred, I might then also try to add a weaker magazine spring -- either by using an old spring or perhaps by cutting a coil from the bottom (not the end under the follower) of one of the new ones.
You've essentially got a "one-of-a-kind" R9 there. It's certainly beautiful, but it now needs to be brought back to full reliability. If all else fails, a new slide might be the only answer. Good luck!
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Well,
If the slide is not moving back far enough what if I try +p ammo to get a little extra kick?
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Well,
If the slide is not moving back far enough what if I try +p ammo to get a little extra kick?
No! Please do not do that! The R9 is not designed for +P ammunition.
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Only because of the increased preasure the +p creates. The porting gets rid of pressure so maybe (and i'm NOT trying to tell you to try it) +p could work. I still dont think you have a big problem. Just have not figured out what will solve it. Mine works great and it was done by the same person.
Corey
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I never did get a straight answer when I queried Rohrbaugh about rather pressure or momentum was the big concern with +P ammo.
However, if it is pressure then the porting really shouldn't relieve that very much. The pressure that is measured for ammo is the chamber pressure. Except for really light projectiles that chamber pressure peaks before the bullet finishes jumping the gap to the rifling and is likely already dropping by the time the back end of the bullet passes that first port.
That said, there normally still is plenty of pressure to give the slide momentum for cycling. Those relatively huge ports may be bleeding off too much of that residual pressure and slowing the slide.
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I assume (you know what that can get ya) that his ports are like mine in that the ones in the barrel are much smaller than the ones in the slide. So maybe they are not a huge as you might think.
Corey
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x275/ccaallaahhaann/4.jpg)
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The ports are the same as yours. I think I will try the spring thing first and go from there.
If all else fails I have one hell of a paper weight.
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The ports are the same as yours. I think I will try the spring thing first and go from there.
If all else fails I have one hell of a paper weight.
Or the finest single-shot 9mm handgun in the world. ;)
[Edited to note that, on my earlier post referring to removing one coil from the "open" end of the recoil spring, I showed the vintage of my R9 No. 132 and the large supply of original spare recoil springs I collected back in 2004 and some of which I still have on hand. The original recoil springs were open at the forward end (the end under the cup) and formed or closed at the rear (the end which fits against the collar). A photo of the original spring design can be seen toward the bottom of the page at this link:
http://www.acbsystems.com/boards/rohrbaugh/basefile/r9-detail-pics.htm
The new recoil springs, of course, are formed or closed at both ends, eliminating one source of problems if the original springs were installed backwards. In any event, if you're working with the new style of recoil spring and were to remove one coil for experimentation, the newly opened end should be installed in the forward position under the cup rather than against the collar.]
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The ports are the same as yours. I think I will try the spring thing first and go from there.
If all else fails I have one hell of a paper weight.
Hank,
That is one beautiful pistola! I'm really hoping that a recoil spring change solves your problem. I feel you pain amigo. Please keep us appraised of your progress in solving the mystery. Good luck! (and welcome to the forum.)
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Any updates yet? Hope all is well.
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I have a update (kinda). I traded Hank out of his custom R9. I picked up custom II (now I have both custom I and II) at the FFL this morning. It does indeed look great. I shot it twice in the indoor tube trap and it jamed just like expected both rounds. I noticed that the ejector was much easer to push down in the back than on my other R9's. I'm thinking/hoping that a new ejector spring will infact solve the case. I changed out the grips to some of the newer style G10 checkered grips. When changing them I noticed that ever screw was loose and after taking them out the Alum. grips wiggled around a bit. I've had three other sets of the Alum. grips and all fit very tight. It may be possible that the loose grips are part of the equation. Tonight I will break it down and see how she looks inside. I think I might polish the chamber while I got it apart. I don't have any extra extractors or extractor springs but depending on what I see tonight I might be ordering me a pair. Wish me luck!
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Good luck Corey; I wish you nothing but the best with custom II.
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Corey, that's the same problem I had with my aluminum grips. They don't fit the pins well, the screws work loose, then the pins hammer on the sides of the holes.
Maria indicated they had consistency problems from the manufacturer.
I think we're out of luck with IDM too, not responding to PM queries anymore. Our grip choices are rapidly deteriorating. :'(
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Best of luck, Corey!! Sounds like you know what to look for.
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Good luck Corey and please post your findings.
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Good luck, Corey! To pharaphrase the old Star Trek introductory sequence, you are now preparing "to boldly go where no man has gone before." [size=10][Split infinitive in the original. ;) ] [/size]
[size=10]Edit: Typo.[/size]
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Well I took it down and found that the extractor did not look just right (to me anyway). I called up and ordered a new one along with extractor spring and roll pin. I'll give that a try along with a new recoil spring. I know Hankhill had experimented with cutting the recoil spring trying to get somthing to work and I will also if the extractor is not the problem but I will start with a new one when I put her back together. I hope the parts will be here tomorrow. I'll post results as they happen, good or bad. Here is a pic of the spring I took out of the gun beside a new one. I tried to get a pic of the extractor lip but could not show what I wanted so I scrapped it.
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x275/ccaallaahhaann/custom%20II%20R9/PICT1840.jpg)
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Corey:
Way to go! This is fascinating to watch, and I'm thinking that you are about to save that R9 from an early grave. Thanks for keeping us informed. 8)
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Corey! I think you'll getter done! :D :D Looks like you're on the way to solving the problem. Thanks for the pictures.
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Thanks for all the best wishes!
Well, my parts did not come today :'( and I was hoping to start my venture so I started without the parts ::). I replaced the recoil spring with a new "old style" spring with the open end. Put her all back together with a splash of oil and dug out a new "old style" mag that has the weaker mag springs in them.
Then I headed out back with 4 bullets (WWB). Loaded all 4 in mag, racked the slide and pulled the trigger. Boom------jam. Ok, cleared it and tried again. Boom------jam. Decided to try it with no mag in it to see what would happen. Boom-----looked ok. Hmmmmm, but wait the empty case was still in the chamber. I start thinking that it might be like a Seecamp and need the mag to eject the case so I put the mag back in with the last bullet, rack the slide, Boom-----case is still in it.
So I go back to the gun room and pull back the slide slowly and see that it ejects all the way at the back of the slide cycle. Now i'm pretty sure that the recoil spring is to strong because of the porting and is not letting the slide make full cycle to eject the case. It's rechambering the shot shell case.
I will now start clipping the recoil spring down a half coil at a time and see what happens. Be back in a bit and let you guys know.
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I took 3 bullets out this time. First shot and it worked! ;D Second shot it jammed :( . Third shot with no more in the mag it did not eject and it did rechamber the empty case. Maybe i'm getting closer but still have more work to do but am having fun so all is well.
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x275/ccaallaahhaann/th_0523091358.jpg) (http://s181.photobucket.com/albums/x275/ccaallaahhaann/?action=view¤t=0523091358.flv)
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I just thought about somthing. It must NOT be pulling the case out and then rechambering it because the slide is back and the case is forward. ??????????
BUT, when I only had one shell in it it did rechamber.
?????????
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Round 3
-cut a additional 1/2 coil off
-streached the spring that pushes on the extractor
Took 5 rounds out back
-round one and two were good
-round three jamed
-round 4 jamed
-round 5 (no more in mag) re-chambered after the shot or slipped off the extractor then back behind the extractor when the slide cycled back
If the extractor is slipping off the brass then back on when the slide closes hopefully a new one will fix the problem.
If its not the extractor and it is holding the brass the entire cycle and then rechambering the empty brass then the recoil spring is still to strong for the slide to go completly back and flick the brass off that little stop (anybody know what this is called?).
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x275/ccaallaahhaann/th_0523091656.jpg) (http://s181.photobucket.com/albums/x275/ccaallaahhaann/?action=view¤t=0523091656.flv)
Any thoughts on the subject would be appriciated. At this point does anybody think the mag spring has anything to do with it? I don't, but it could???
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Corey. Just had a thought. What if you changed slides from one of your other R9's from ported to standard with new recoil spring, and see if it performs as a regular R9. I know, of course, you want it to work as ported. This would be to see if it worked without the ports. To me, this would be good to know, then, go from there. Just my thoughts.
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I thought about changing out a barrel to see if it would work. After a few days of tinkering I might try it if nothing else works. I have just about convinced myself that it has to be the extractor. My other ported R9 works perfect and thats with the regular recoil and mag springs. Has to be that extractor. Has to be.
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Corey:
I agree with you that the evidence is pointing more and more toward the extractor as the culprit. "Let the arrest warrant issue and bring him in for arraignment." ;)
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Step one - Open mouth
Step two - Insert foot
Well it is not the extractor. :-[ I still have not gotten the new one yet but I pulled one out of another R9 and put it in this one along with a full length recoil spring and it still jammed just like ever.
I then changed out the full length recoil spring and replaced it with one with a coil cut off. It shot twice then jammed.
I then put the orginal extractor back in. I put a full length recoil spring back in. I put in a NON ported barrel in the ported slide and guess what. It worked great.
So, i'm not sure just where I stand now but its not the extractor. It must be the porting has infact changed the timing of the cycle and I have some more trile and error work to do to see if I can figure it out. I have sent Wolff a email explaining what is going on and will be recieving a asorted spring pack of recoil springs to try out. I'll post any new results as they unfold.
I still don't understand why my other custom works and this one does not. I did compaire them today and the barrels are finished different. Custom I had nothing done to the barrel. Custom II looks like the barrel was polished, the feed ramp was worked on and at the top of the ramp there is a bevel of some sort.
Any new thoughts about this??????????
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On the bright side, it does work with a NON ported barrel. I guess you could swap barrels with Customs one and two to see if the ports work on Custom two. I know you've thought of that, but it does seem like now it's the barrel.
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And here I was ready to "arraign" the extractor. (My wife, the judge, would say that was just one more example of my flawed prosecutorial mind set. ;) )
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The parts came in the mail today! No other news for now.
corey
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corey, quit playing with the R9s and finish the kid's fort. ;) :D Tom
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;D Tom, sounds like good wisdom to me!
Does it count that I was standing beside the fort when shooting?
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it sure does!!!!! 8) Tom
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Ok, i'll work on the fort tomorrow. ::) My kids only have 2 more days of school before summer break and I want to get it done so they can play hard this summer.
Now down to business. I got home from work a little early so I started with the custom II problem again. I took the ported barrel out of my other one and put it in this one. It worked great. When I got back to my bench I compared the two barrels to see whats up.
Well I think I have finally figured it out!
The one I got from HankHill had the feed ramp "polished" and my first custom had no work done to the barrel. It appears that the polishing got a little out of hand and opened up the chamber to much. It's kinda sad, I now figure this barrel is ruined unless I break out the welder. :o As best I can tell eithor the back of the case is swelling just enough at the rim when shot that it sticks OR (my guess) that the case can be pushed just far enough to the left that the extractor is slipping off the rim on the right.
Looks like i'm now looking for barrel. :-[
I think I will contact the gunsmith and see what he will do for me. Since he did the work for HankHill and not me I don't know what will happen but I will let you guys know.
The custom II barell is on the left (the one that had the "polished ramp"). The one on the right is from my first custom and works great!
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x275/ccaallaahhaann/custom%20II%20R9/PICT1857.jpg)
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Glad it works! Hope the Gunsmith helps. How much is a ported barrel?
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I hope he does too. I have no idea how much a barrel cost but if I do have to get a new one don't think I will be getting it ported. I just hope I don't have to send the gun in for it to be "fitted".
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Thanks for sharing, Corey. It definitely looks like a runaway dremel.
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Corey! Any contact with the gunsmith that worked on
Custom II?
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To be on part time at work I have been very busy and have not even called him yet. I hope to on Monday morning. I'll let you guys know what happens.
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To be on part time at work I have been very busy and have not even called him yet. I hope to on Monday morning. I'll let you guys know what happens.
Corey,
Did you ever resolve the problem with this pistol? Is it now a "shooter" or still an expensive paper weight? :(
If you continued this discussion elsewhere and I missed it I apolgize but I was interested if how it all worked out for you.
Regards, Quiet1
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Update?
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Sorry, I forgot about this thread. Results are still pending. I'll try to test soon.
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I forgot to update this thread, sorry. I have gotten the pup back from the gunsmith and to date (155 rounds) the pup has not had a single ejection or feed problem! :) yea! I have had some Remington 147gr golden sabers that took two trigger pulls to go off but I will contribute that to hard primers. I tried them in a couple other R9s and they did the same thing. 115 gr Silvertips, 124 gr gold dots, and 115 WWB all shot great!
Now to the some what weird part. The smith cut a couple coils off the mag spring and installed a new extractor. He said after talking to Karl about the problems this gun was having Karl sent him a (if I understood him correct) newly designed or modified extractor to use in this gun. Without taking it out of the slide I can't tell any difference and while its working 100% I dont want to take it apart just yet.
I have enjoyed having it with me this week in a Meco IWB holster.
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Corey. Thanks for the update. Been wondering if you still had this one.
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corey, good to hear that you trust it enough to carry it.
John