The Rohrbaugh Forum

Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: Bobs_classic on January 01, 2010, 10:26:59 PM

Title: Black Talon
Post by: Bobs_classic on January 01, 2010, 10:26:59 PM
Does the R9 shoot the original Black Talon ammo??  If so Maybe I'll buy it as I see it,thanks Bob
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: sslater on January 01, 2010, 11:41:07 PM
A few years ago I was sorting out my ammo stash, came across half a box of Black Talon, and shot it up just to get rid of the stuff.  My R9s ate it up, no problem.

I figured that Black Talon had gotten such an (undeserved) sinister reputation that I didn't want it in defense pistol.  Too many lawyers looking for a weakness in your self-defense argument for my liking.  (Sorry, Richard S.!)

Steve
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: yankee2500 on January 02, 2010, 12:07:13 AM
Why would you want to bother? The Black Talon ammo was designed in 1991, and pulled from the market in 2000. It is now sold as a collectors item, at collector prices.
  The current production Winchester Ranger RA 9T 9mm, is
 essentially the Black Talon/SXT round, and at a more reasonable price, $25 for 50rds., and is the latest technoligy.
  And the Black Talon will at some point, no longer be able to be found at a reasonable price or in sufficient amounts to allow practice.
Here is a link to a place that has it in stock.
http://www.luckygunner.com/9mm-115-grain-jhp-winchster-ranger-50-rounds

John



Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: Bobs_classic on January 02, 2010, 12:39:17 AM
Have you shot ranger with your R9,and would you carry it with that ammo??
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: yankee2500 on January 02, 2010, 01:03:23 AM
I have shot the 147gr. ranger in my R9, it functioned prefect. And yes I would use it for carry.
  I just ordered a case of the Ranger 45acp 230gr for my Kimber Ultra CDP II, and plan to use that as my carry round as soon as I test it in the Kimber and have the gun broken in.
   I carry the Ranger ammo now in my Kahr PM40.

John
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: kjtrains on January 02, 2010, 10:34:02 AM
John.  I noticed the Kimber CDP II is two toned.  Are you planning to have it coated to one tone?  Beautiful gun the way it is.  Just wondered.
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: Richard S on January 02, 2010, 10:52:02 AM
Quote
* * *  Too many lawyers looking for a weakness in your self-defense argument for my liking.  (Sorry, Richard S.!)

Steve

Steve:

No need for apology. Some of my colleagues at the Bar need to re-read the Constitution, particularly the Second and Fourteenth Amendments.
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: jetboater on January 02, 2010, 07:44:22 PM
"Here is a link to a place that has it in stock.
http://www.luckygunner.com/9mm-115-grain-jhp-winchster-ranger-50-rounds"
 
the stock number on this (RA9MMJHP--on the lower right of the end panel of the box) shows it's regular Ranger JHP rather than the T series which is the Talon--the stock number for the only Talon in 9MM is RA9T and it's 147gr

All the LE Winchester ammo is in same Ranger box--have to check the stock number to figure out which it is (FMJ, JHP, Talon, Frangible, etc)

here's the link on the Winchester site for Talon--
http://www.winchester.com/Products/le/handgun-ammunition/ranger/t-series/Pages/default.aspx

here's the link for the RA9MMJP--
http://www.winchester.com/Products/le/handgun-ammunition/ranger/jhp/Pages/default.aspx
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: scar2783 on January 03, 2010, 09:25:05 AM
Bob,

I took some of the other guy's advice and bought the Hornady Critical Defense rounds. They function great and I really like the science behind the construction of the round. I attached a youtube link and I believe it was the Best Defense or American Shooter TV shows that did an independent test with the same results as seen in this video.

I also agree with Steve in regard to the Black Talons. I have a few boxes in .45 and they sit in the safe. As a Law Enforcement vet of over 26 years, I can tell you that Steve is right on the money with potentially being attached in court on that issue.

Mark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhXSTqV0CT4




Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: jetboater on January 03, 2010, 12:31:37 PM
I really like the HCD round as well and carry it in my HKs but I am leary of using it in my R9s--some of the primers Hornaday uses are too hard for some R9s and won't fire--I've had this problem in mine--see this thread for more info--

http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/YaBB.cgi?board=R9S;action=display;num=1254080760;start=0
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: Bobs_classic on January 03, 2010, 02:14:47 PM
Thanks for those links,very interesting
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: scar2783 on January 03, 2010, 03:02:30 PM
 My friend and I both purchased our R9's ( back to back serial #'s )  from the factory with the help of our gunsmith/dealer friend in mid November. We have both since shot a box of 25 HCD through each gun with no problems and I saw nothing wrong with the primers either. As a matter of fact,  I have yet to have any malfunction with any of the various rounds I've put through the gun and neither has my friend with the other/sister gun. From what I've read here, it seems that the R9 has really been refined.

Thanks for the heads up on the primers...

Mark
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: jetboater on January 03, 2010, 03:30:22 PM
I've got about 20 boxes of the 9mm HCD in my safe and after I read that thread, I looked at them and I have 4 boxes of one of the lots with the hard primers  and I did have problems in my R9 when I used those. (about 20% FTF). I opened every other box and there does seem to be some difference between the primers used in them. I've fired several boxes of HCD in my R9 with other lot numbers with no problems. HCD is a great round and fires every time in my other guns but I don't want to worry whether they'll go bang in the R9 or not so I just ordered a bunch of Speer Gold Dot 115s from Cabelas for $15.99/box and will use those in the R9 while Hornaday sorts this out (they actually bought an R9 a couple of weeks ago to test the HCD in so maybe some new info will come to light after they do some testing.
Congrats on your new R9-- it's an amazing little gun!
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: tracker on January 03, 2010, 07:22:03 PM
You have it right, jetboater; I was an advocate of HCD before but Hornady slipped us a game changer with these suspect primers.
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: yankee2500 on January 04, 2010, 12:12:46 AM
Quote
John.  I noticed the Kimber CDP II is two toned.  Are you planning to have it coated to one tone?  Beautiful gun the way it is.  Just wondered.

I think I will keep it as it is, I did add the CT Burlwood Laser grips that I took off my Colt New Agent, that I just sold.

John
Title: Re: Black TalonI
Post by: ccw on January 04, 2010, 11:32:35 PM
I think the Black Talon ammo has a well deserved reputation.  During the first Illinois handgun deer season, maybe 15 years ago I shot a deer at 50 yards with a 10 mm Black Talon from a single shot, short barreled Thompson Center pistol.  It was a really cold day, I think 25 below zero without the windchill.  My pistol misfired in the early morning due to the fact that I kept it in a belt holster, and the oil on the firing pin prevented it from firing, as the oil was as thick as  cheddar cheese.  Back at the trailer, I warmed the gun up, got it working again, and went out again, keeping it warm.  There was 6 inches of snow on the ground, and I shot the deer from a stable rest; chest shot. The exit hole was about 4 inches, and I have never seen so much blood blasted across the snow in a lifetime of shooting big game animals.  The deer jumped up at the shot, and died without taking a step.  That Black Talon expanded incredibly to create such a wound.  I wonder what Black Talons would do in a comparison scientific test in ballistic gelatin?
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: yankee2500 on January 05, 2010, 01:04:54 AM
The bulk of the hype was generated by the ant- gunners, and was just bull.
This is from Wickipedia about the Black Talon ammo.

The ammunition was targeted by those opposed to civilian ownership of handguns[5][6] and eventually the Talons became known by the moniker "cop-killer" bullets.[7] The identifying characteristic of the Black Talon ammunition was the black coating on the bullets themselves. There were false rumors that the bullets were armor piercing and could penetrate the Kevlar vests worn by police officers.[8][9] The claims are quite contradictory as defensive rounds which expand have notoriously decreased penetration by their nature, whereas more mundane practice rounds penetrate further but have decreased stopping power--penetration and expansion are opposites and designs must trade one for the other.

To further the controversy, some medical personnel claimed that the sharp barb like tips could potentially cause tears in the surgical gloves and hands of the medical workers, exposing them to greater risk of infection,[1] however there are no documented reports of this actually happening.[10]

It's just stupid people spreading bad information, that other stupid people can grab onto, believe and pass along.

And the biggest problem is "You Can't Fix Stupid"

John
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: kjtrains on January 05, 2010, 10:25:01 AM
John.  Excellent information.  I still like the Black Talon.  I have it for the .45 and like your sign on.  Better to be judged by 12 than carried by six.
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: P7Enigma on January 05, 2010, 06:17:28 PM
...AND the .45 version of a Black Talon "expanded in water" is the avatar at left I have been using. ;D
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: kjtrains on January 05, 2010, 06:24:12 PM
What a hole that would make.  I'm for whatever it takes to have an advantage on the bad guy.
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: Richard S on January 05, 2010, 07:00:14 PM
Quote
...AND the .45 version of a Black Talon "expanded in water" is the avatar at left I have been using. ;D

Enigma:

I've been wondering what that was. I'd about decided it was something from outer space that you had found in the desert.   ;)
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: kjtrains on January 05, 2010, 07:24:28 PM
I thought it was some kind of creature from where I didn't know.
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: Chief-USN on January 08, 2010, 08:04:08 AM
John,
 What do you think of the Action/Springs on the Kimber CDP? There are a few Gun Stores around here the do not like to sell the 3" Kimber (Or anyone elses .45) due to problems with so much power in so small a package. (Something we can all relate to with our little Pups.

Chief
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: P7Enigma on January 08, 2010, 11:57:56 AM
Quote

Enigma:

I've been wondering what that was. I'd about decided it was something from outer space that you had found in the desert.   ;)

Yep...I actually work for "MIB"..... 8)
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: Richard S on January 08, 2010, 03:01:32 PM
Quote

Yep...I actually work for "MIB"..... 8)

I thought so. Now . . . can I qualify for a Series Four De-atomizer, or at least a Noisy Cricket?   ;)
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: P7Enigma on January 08, 2010, 04:23:26 PM
Are you a Class III dealer? We only do "dealer samples" on those unless you are LE SWAT or mil. ;D

The "Cricket" was designed by a Rohrbaugh name on a different planet...hence its small size
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: Richard S on January 08, 2010, 04:39:20 PM
Thanks. I'll start the paperwork.   ;)
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: BytorJr on January 08, 2010, 08:58:07 PM
I'm starting to feel really old.  Just looked at that ammo sight and 9mm is now over what even 45 was 18-24 months ago.    I remember when I was shocked when 9mm went to 7.50 let alone 15-18 bucks for FMJ Blazer!!!!!!!!!!!!  

Will it ever end?  Think I'll start reloading.

Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: yankee2500 on January 08, 2010, 08:59:29 PM
Quote
John,
 What do you think of the Action/Springs on the Kimber CDP? There are a few Gun Stores around here the do not like to sell the 3" Kimber (Or anyone elses .45) due to problems with so much power in so small a package. (Something we can all relate to with our little Pups.

Chief


I have only put about 20rds. through it, but is is very pleasant  to shoot.  I just sold my 3" Colt New Agent that I had put a couple of hundred rds. though and never had any problems.
   The reason I sold the Colt and bought the Kimber, is because I always wanted a Kimber Ultra CDP but just never got around to getting one, so decided I wasn't getting any younger, and didn't want to die without owning one.   ;D  
 The 3" 45s are small enough and light enough you hardly know you have it with you.
  It seems pretty foolish not to sell 3" 45s, they make up a large share of the 1911 market today, with every mgf. making there version. I don't read about anymore problems with the 3" 45s than any other barrel length.
 I believe they have overcome the major problems that were connected with the short barrel powerful autos, look at all the other 3" barrel autos in 40S&W, 357SIG 9mm.

John
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: Chief-USN on January 09, 2010, 10:30:23 AM
  I think part of the Reason Black Talons got the totally misinformed reputation of being able to shoot through armour, police vests, etc. Is due in fact mostly to their color. At the time there were not many if any, Black bullets out there. In the Military Armour piercing rounds are designated by being painted Black.  I had a friiend  that worked in the emergancy room of a local hospital here. He told me that Black Talons were so sharp when they opened that he always "double Gloved" when working on someone that had been shot, just in case.
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: theirishguard on January 09, 2010, 01:12:27 PM
I was at the Dallas Safari Club show this week and talked with the folks at Federal. They are running their equipment 24/7, even the .32acp, .380acp and 9mm.   Tom
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: BytorJr on January 09, 2010, 01:57:12 PM
Interesting.  I'd assume all other manufacturers are doing this as well.  It'll be interesting to see if ammo becomes easier to find after the 2010 elections are over provided one party doesn't do very well.
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: kjtrains on January 09, 2010, 02:00:48 PM
Quote
I was at the Dallas Safari Club show this week and talked with the folks at Federal. They are running their equipment 24/7, even the .32acp, .380acp and 9mm.   Tom

How about Winchester?  I don't see Silvertips becoming available in any caliber.
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: tracker on January 09, 2010, 02:06:04 PM

I found .45/185 gr. available at Cabela's  last week with some .9mm Silvertips on back order of two weeks.
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: kjtrains on January 09, 2010, 02:34:23 PM
I have had an order in for 9mm Winchester 115 gr. Silvertips from Cabela's since April, 09.  In December, 09, the backorder got down to 0-1 week, then two weeks.  I just checked, moments ago, and it's back to 0-1 week.  As soon as it gets down to 1 week, it goes back to two weeks.  I even got an email last week saying expected ship date, Jan. 15.  Will not happen.

I also have an order in for the same with Sportsman's Guide and their expected ship date is Feb. 15.

I'm not in need of these orders, but don't see the Silvertips showing up anywhere except from individuals or Gunshops on GunBroker.com and GunsAmerica.

I looked at Bass Pro Shop in GA. in December and nothing.

Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: BytorJr on January 09, 2010, 04:06:04 PM
Just got back from Wally world and Sports Authority and zilch.  In fact, my sport's authority sells nothing but airsoft.

Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: kjtrains on January 09, 2010, 04:24:09 PM
Our Walmart has nothing.  Maybe some big caliber rifle ammo.  No handgun ammo at all.  I've grown tired of going by the gun shop here, as nothing has changed.  

They have foreign ammo that I don't use.  Have been looking for Winchester .45 Long Colt Silvertips for the longest time.  
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: Richard S on January 09, 2010, 04:42:02 PM
My neighborhood FFL just decided to consolidate his two stores into one. Unfortunately for me, the store he is retaining is located in the neighboring county. For me, it simply means driving an hour rather than ten minutes each way. The disturbing factor is the comment my friend made explaining his decision to downsize his operation: "The stress and paperwork in keeping two stores in operation has just become too much."

With the closure of the local store, five good men have lost part-time employment -- two of them were "moonlighting" LEO's helping to support their families and three were retired military personnel supplementing their pensions.

I have some choice words for all of this, but they are not appropriate for this Forum.
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: kjtrains on January 09, 2010, 05:09:28 PM
Every time I'm in our gun shop, the owner says he may not be there next year and says he may not renew his Class III license for this year.  

Each time he says, it's not getting any better.
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: tracker on January 09, 2010, 05:41:49 PM
It all seems like a squeeze play between a softening economy and increasingly more stringent regulations. The merchants and their customers are in the vise, and the medical profession is about to be pushed over the edge also.
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: kjtrains on January 09, 2010, 05:58:42 PM
Our city was supposed to get a Home Depot and a Golden Coral steak house, and it didn't happen.  Of course the Home Depot was hit with the building recession and the steak house with the economy situation.

Our Mall now has about 20% occupancy and looks like a true ghost town when walking through.  

Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: BytorJr on January 10, 2010, 12:10:49 AM
20% occupancy is a recipe for disaster.   I didn't know more and more restrictions on gun shops were coming down forcing many to close.  

I truly doubt that within the next 2 years ammo demand will slump to where there is a decent supply and cheaper prices.  The only real thing driving prices is pure demand.  Metals have generally fallen from their peak (except precious metals) last I checked.

One thing is for sure, this all stinks and it's actually kind of scary when one thinks about the cause and effects of all this.

Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: yankee2500 on January 10, 2010, 01:18:20 AM
I was at my local Walley-World a couple of days ago, and picked up a 100rd pack of WWB ($35) 230gr. 45acp, and they had some 50rd boxes ($20) also. There was 9mm and as always 40S&W on the shelves.

John
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: kjtrains on January 10, 2010, 08:49:27 AM
Always the stuff I don't need.    :(
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: kjtrains on January 10, 2010, 08:52:51 AM
Quote
20% occupancy is a recipe for disaster.

I agree and it's getting worse; not any Mall traffic.
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: birdman on January 10, 2010, 08:56:56 AM
 And the truly sad part is that every time a gunstore owner gets fed up with the hassle, or an ffl holder fails to renew his license because he is sick of the b.s., then the bastards have come a little closer to winning. The're wearing us down, winning by attrition. I won't live to see it, but our children and grandchildren will never enjoy the freedoms we did.   Gene
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: theirishguard on January 10, 2010, 11:49:00 AM
ATF is all about getting rid of all FFL holders.   Tom
Title: Re: Black Talon
Post by: kjtrains on January 10, 2010, 12:00:51 PM
So that's why it's harder to get a FFL.  Every time I look into getting mine, I see more obstacles.