The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: steve1147 on April 02, 2011, 05:50:12 PM
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Hello again everyone, just been reading and not posting lately, learn a lot that way.
I just came across (was given to me...) 30 rounds of 147 gn 9mm Black Talon ammo which belonged to a deceased cop, still in the clips he carried it in.
What's your opinion on me carrying this in my clip for self defense in lieu of the 115 grain silvertips of current?
Thanks, Steve W.
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Give it a try to make sure it will run reliably before you depend on it!
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I have several boxes of Black Talon which I've never opened. One thought I had after reading your post was the mating of it and the R9 regarding hollow point spread effectiveness in a short barrel. I don't know the answer but it posed a question.
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Give it a try to make sure it will run reliably before you depend on it!
Yup, that's why I'm asking first, with only 30 rounds to my name, and obviously no NEW being made, I hate to waste what was considered a great defense round and discontinued due to bad press on trials.
Don't mind shooting-off 10 to check reliability in feeding if I can save the rest.
Thought someone here might have already done the testing.
Thanks, Steve W.
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I have some as well, but am reluctant to try it in the R9; still unopened. Would be interesting if someone would come forward that has tried it.
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You have to remember the Black Talon ammo is now a twenty year old design with twenty year old materials. There have been advancements in powder, primers bullet design and materials over twenty years for sure.
I'm just saying that the Black Talon ammo may have been the top dog of the time but now is no better than any Premium SD ammo.
Here is some interesting info.
Black Talon ammunition was discontinued by Winchester over 10 years ago, now. They have a similar line called the Ranger SXT, which is NOT the same, as the bullet design is significantly different. However, I hear it's still a mighty fine ammunition.
Now Gold Dot ammunition I CAN talk about, at least in 9mm and .45 ACP.
The nice thing about Speer Gold Dot ammunition is this:
They are specifically designed for maximum efficiency of hollow point expansion at the standard velocities that more regular ammunition of a given caliber and mass are available in.
What does this mean? It means that the bullet doesn't require higher than average velocities for optimum bullet expansion.
This means two things:
1. Most importantly, the ballistics of the Gold Dot ammunition match the ballistics of the regular ammunition you shoot.
For example, if you shoot 230 gr. .45 ACP Winchester target ammunition (which has a muzzel velocity of about 850 fps), the 230 gr. Gold Dot .45 hollowpoints will shoot the same. They also have about 850 fps muzzel velocity.
So you can target shoot all you want with your regular 230 gr. ammuntion and then, later, load your pistol with 230 gr. Golg Dots and still hit what you're aiming at, just like at the target range.
2. The next thing important about Gold Dot is, since it's not a higher velocity ammunition, you don't have to worry about the extra wear and tear on your pistol that running hot rounds through it does. Nor do you have to worry about violating any warnings from the manufacturer about using +P or +P+ ammunition.
Speer Gold Dot ammunition also has expansion characteristics that generally outperform most other ammunition. In fact, I saw a gun shop several years ago that had a board posted with various brands of .45 ACP hollowpoints glued to it which had been fired into ballistics gelatin. Each bullet had been measured for maximum diameter and final mass as well. The Gold Dot had not only the LARGEST diameter (1.1 inches, I kid you not), but also the highest remaining mass, with nearly the entire 230 gr. present. [COLOR="Red"]This was even better than the Black Talon sample[/COLOR], though Black Tallon was second behind Gold Dot.
So Speer Gold Dot is about as fine a self defense hollowpoint bullet as you could need.
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Here is a youtube comparison that confirms John's assessment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmQ1E8FGc4w
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I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of any one of those bad boys. :o
If you have some either sell it to a collector, collect it yourself or shoot it and move on to Newer and equally as good or better current production ammo.
A little more info on the Winchester Talons.
Current status
Winchester discontinued the Black Talon line completely in 2000. The “Ranger SXT” ammunition sold later by Winchester is very similar to the Black Talon though without the black Lubalox coating on the bullet. Among shooters, a running joke is that SXT stands for “Same eXact Thing", though the official branding is “Supreme eXpansion Technology”. However, there are differences in the anatomy of the bullets which become apparent when carefully examined side by side. The hollow point cavity dimensions and angles of the meplat were altered to enhance reliability of expansion, though the basic "reverse taper" design unique to the Black Talon was retained. This "reverse taper" refers to the bullet's jacket being thicker at the tip than the toward the base, enhancing rigidity which allows the sharp petals to remain largely perpendicular to the wound path, unlike traditional designs where the expanding jacket petals would peel back almost completely behind the expanded led mushroom. This difference is obvious after firing into ballistic gelatin.[18] In 2007 Winchester updated their Ranger SXT line and renamed it Ranger T-Series. Besides further dimensional changes to the hollow point for reliable expansion, the trademark perpendicular petals were made longer yet more rounded at the tips to retain stiffness.
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Good advice. I hadn't considered the ammo's age. Guess I'll stick with the silver hollow points in 115gn for defensive carry, they're much newer and proven.
Thanks, Steve W.
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I think i would do the same.
At least you know they will function properly! :)
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There are collectors out there who buy the Talons, I have seen quite a few sell on other forums for more than a sane person would pay to shoot up.
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I saw one box for sale @$70; don't know the actual selling price.
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Check out this nut jobs asking price, it's for 1 box of 20. :o
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: charleston sc
State: SC
Posts: 224
WTS Win. Black Talon 357
357 180GR. SXT Black Talon $100.
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I can see why he would want to sell at $100. He may be wanting to for a good while. ;D
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Black Talon got a bad rap because anti gun people called them cop killer bullets painting them with the same brush that Arcane and KTW got painted with. The only thing that would concern me if I got some was if it was +p or +P+. If you decide to shoot it...be cognizant of that and if the first round feels unduly hot on recoil, don't squeeze off the second. All +P ammo in those days was not required to be marked on the headstamp. None of the KTW was marked +P and it is hot. Of course not all KTW will go through body armorer either. I know for a fact .45ACP won't. I doubt .380 would. I have 5 .380 KTW projectiles that I pulled from .380 cases simply because I didn't think I would ever own a .380 and I never have.
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The basic part of the design was engineering the bullet so that it was segmented and peeled back in a flower-shape. Maybe if they had called "Pretty Sunflower" instead of Black Talon they wouldn't have gotten so much bad press with it. The bullets do look pretty and symetrical when they are recovered.
Well anyway, Winchester has taken that design component and done a lot with it. They've utilized it on several new rounds in different weights. Remington Golden Sabre does something similar -spiral cut of the nose jacket. They do look different than the Winchesters after they've expanded
My thoughts are that in 9mm you want something to penetrate 14" or close to it and expand to .600 cal or greater.
Some ballistic results - plain gelatin:
MFG Make wgt Penetration Dia
Remington Golden Sabre 147 14.5 0.620
Winchester Ranger T +P 124 12.2 0.700
Winchester Ranger T +P+ 127 12.3 0.640
Winchester Ranger T 147 13.9 0.650
Winchester Bonded 147 14.7 0.620
Winchester +P Bonded 124 12.6 0.680
CORBON DPX 115 14.5 0.538
These all look like they'd be effective SD rounds. The Golden Sabre 147, Winchester Ranger T 147 and Bonded 147gr all look like they'd consistently be very effective.
http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf