The Rohrbaugh Forum
Miscellaneous => The Water Cooler -- General Discussions => Topic started by: DDGator on July 20, 2012, 10:35:59 AM
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Sigh... I have thought about this often whenI go to a movie theater. Such locations have the potential to be very dangerous -- dark, loud, crowded, limited exits, "theater style" tiered seating with no cover, etc.
God bless the victims of this terrible tragedy. I'm sorry that no one was in a position to stop it sooner. Stay safe, everyone.
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That was elegantly stated, Duane. Thank you.
The usual gun-control advocates are already attempting to use this horrific tragedy to advance their political agenda. It all makes one appreciate even more the heroic actions of the armed citizen in the Florida internet cafe incident earlier this week.
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Duane,
It makes me think there might be times I want the Pup as back-up not as the only. I am thinking about buying the P220 Carry or Compact model. Just started the research last week.
But he was armed to the teeth and covered head to toe in body armor. Somewhat like the B/A North Hollywood robbery.
So true about the lack of cover with the stadium seating.
May the souls of the victims rest in peace. Thoughts and prayers to the wounded/survivors & their families, and God bless the first responders.
Robar233
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Very similar thing happened here in Tyler, TX a few years back on the Court house lawn. The guy had full body armor, armed to the teeth.
Bullets were raining in the court house and out. The Sheriff's deputies were helpless.
A freind of mine, Mark who ran the indoor range here was a superb shot with his Officers model. He tried to stop the guy from cover, a vehicle. He shot 2-3 times I believe, but no effect. Mark did not realize the guy had Body Armor. After the guy got hit, he walked over to mark and blasted him with his assault rifle and while he was down gave a coup 'de grace for good measure.
The whole incident really rattled the Judges and proscecutors pretty bad as you would expect, feeling helpless and all.
Now there are AR-15's on every floor in the court house available not only for the Sheriff's office, but for Court Officials as well.
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Reinz,
I had missed the details of that incident. Guess there is merit to the school of thought "two to the body, one to the head". However distance is the enemy of that school!
Robar233
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My heart goes out to the victims and their families. This hits too close to home as my son and his young family live not far from Aurora, CO.
A couple of observations on the reporting of the massacre - and I can't say this to anyone but other gun people: That nut did terrible damage with what were apparently commercially available weapons. So why do the news organizations feel the need to exaggerate?
On Fox (Cable) News they spoke over and over about the AR-15 "assault rifle". That grates on my ears as much as if they had described the old Hyundai the shooter was driving as a 2012 Ferrari.
A former police officer interviewed on that same channel spoke about the fact that Glock pistols are capable of holding extended "clips" with 20+ rounds. I heard no reports of the shooter's pistols having extended mags. Like 15 +1 rounds in standard magazines isn't evil enough, he has to make it sound even worse!
I don't recall if they reported the shooter used the shotgun, but at least they didn't call it an anti-aircraft weapon.....
As far as the body armor, I'm not familiar with it other than what I've seen on TV shows. But I've wondered how I would defeat body armor in a life/death situation like the movie theater shooting.
Q1: What kind of protection does SWAT type body armor provide for the back? What about the sides and back of the neck?
Q2: What about sides of the torso, the feet, ankles, lower legs and thighs?
If I was carrying concealed in a theater, I'd definitely want to exploit any vulnerabilities with a laser on my gun - like the one I have on my cheap Ruger LC9. I'm usually armed with my R9S which doesn't have a laser.
What's that old saying? "Luck favors the prepared mind."
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The murders that happened in CO were terrible.Not only to the families that have to deal with the loss of their loved ones,but also to "us" gun "people"..
We always have to deal with the lefty media hit back at the 2nd amendment!!
They don't want to deal with the person that did it,but hammer at the tool used because it meets their agenda.
Do they demand that cars be more regulated when there is a major death toll with a car?
No there is not.
In MI and I believe most states with concealed laws,the movie theater is out of bounds for us to carry.
This creates a CEZ=Criminal Empowerment Zone.
Makes one wonder about the old adage of, It is better to be tried by 12 than be carried by 6!!!
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It is difficult to comprehend the wanton destruction of human life. The Oklahoma City bombing in 1995 left 168 dead and 680 wounded without the pulling of one gun trigger.
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It is difficult to comprehend the wanton destruction of human life. The Oklahoma City bombing in 1995 left 168 dead and 680 wounded without the pulling of one gun trigger.
Cowards come in all forms. >:(
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Makes one wonder about the old adage of, It is better to be tried by 12 than be carried by 6!!!
Texas has had their Concealed Carry permits for only 15-16 yrs?? now. I've been carrying concealed for almost 40 years.
If you are carrying correctly- who knows?
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I'm thinking the Glock 36 is going to be my new carry gun......it would have knocked him down or at least slowed him down??
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A G-36 is one of my favorites and very accurate. However, with all of his armament and protection he intended to take out a lot of lives before he gave up his own. If his rifle hadn't jammed it would have been a lot worse. A rear shot is probably the only thing that would have taken him down. In all of these mass shooting murders like the two in Killeen and two in Denver there was not one armed victim. One police chief speculated today that if someone else had been armed in the theater there would have been two people shooting wildly. That would have been a better option than being a sitting duck and, as you say, might have slowed him down. Another thing in addition to Duane's post is that this shooter had a tactical advantage with the audience illuminated from the movie screen continuing to roll. These guys pick their spots to attack with the least possible opposition and rarely repeat the scenario.
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This will give fuel to reinstating the expired AWB again, no doubt. Great point on Oklahoma City...or 9/11 for that matter. Crazy people don't need guns.
Tactically speaking, it would be a difficult task to take this guy out with a small concealed carry pistol. Sounds like an accurate head shot may be required, as least for any type of quick stop. Unfortunately, that might have to be delivered at very close range in order to see the exposed areas and place accurate fire.
I have thought about similar situations and figure that advancing on the shooter when he is distracted may be the only way. Even putting bullets into his vest/helmet or whatever as you close the distance may give the untrained criminal some problem in reacting to the approaching threat. Unfortunately, the prognosis is not good for the potential hero in the situation. Very risky business, but sometimes you have no good alternatives.
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I think there is a lesson to be taken from the Florida internet cafe incident. The armed citizen made his move when the would-be robber was distracted. After the armed citizen's first shot, he continued to advance at his own risk. The result was to wound both BGs and diffuse a situation that could have had many innocent victims.
The armed citizen in Florida is a hero. Would that there could have been an armed citizen of his courage and ability somewhere in the front rows of that Colorado theater.
May God in His inifinite wisdom and mercy take into His care those innocent victims and may He grant comfort and solace to their grieving loved ones.
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There is also a relevant ancillary factor here of age demographics in the Aurora audience. The oldest viewer is 51 and I suspect that the median age in that theater is probably younger than 30. The internet cafe hero, Mr. Williams, is 71 and the median age on this forum is probably closer to 60 than it is 30. Holmes was intelligent enough to factor this into his plan to kill as many as possible. Cowards always choose the path of least resistance.
It would be an interesting survey to determine the average age of CHL/CCW holders in each state.
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Tactically speaking, it would be a difficult task to take this guy out with a small concealed carry pistol. Sounds like an accurate head shot may be required, as least for any type of quick stop. Unfortunately, that might have to be delivered at very close range in order to see the exposed areas and place accurate fire.
I have thought about similar situations and figure that advancing on the shooter when he is distracted may be the only way. Even putting bullets into his vest/helmet or whatever as you close the distance may give the untrained criminal some problem in reacting to the approaching threat. Unfortunately, the prognosis is not good for the potential hero in the situation. Very risky business, but sometimes you have no good alternatives.
This all applies to the Tyler, TX situation I mentioned above. The "hero" could not get close enough. He was an awesome marksman. He did not realize the coward had body armor, at least not right away. Then it was too late. Exactly as DD descibes.
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I think there is a lesson to be taken from the Florida internet cafe incident. The armed citizen made his move when the would-be robber was distracted. After the armed citizen's first shot, he continued to advance at his own risk. The result was to wound both BGs and diffuse a situation that could have had many innocent victims.
The armed citizen in Florida is a hero. Would that there could have been an armed citizen of his courage and ability somewhere in the front rows of that Colorado theater.
May God in His inifinite wisdom and mercy take into His care those innocent victims and may He grant comfort and solace to their grieving loved ones.
I my state once they turned and ran away you could not continue to shoot .......doing so could put YOU in jail!
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I think there is a lesson to be taken from the Florida internet cafe incident. The armed citizen made his move when the would-be robber was distracted. After the armed citizen's first shot, he continued to advance at his own risk. The result was to wound both BGs and diffuse a situation that could have had many innocent victims.
The armed citizen in Florida is a hero. Would that there could have been an armed citizen of his courage and ability somewhere in the front rows of that Colorado theater.
May God in His inifinite wisdom and mercy take into His care those innocent victims and may He grant comfort and solace to their grieving loved ones.
I my state once they turned and ran away you could not continue to shoot .......doing so could put YOU in jail!
Jack , what state are you in?
In Texas you would get a Hero's parade and a key to the city! ;D ;D
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I think there is a lesson to be taken from the Florida internet cafe incident. The armed citizen made his move when the would-be robber was distracted. After the armed citizen's first shot, he continued to advance at his own risk. The result was to wound both BGs and diffuse a situation that could have had many innocent victims.
The armed citizen in Florida is a hero. Would that there could have been an armed citizen of his courage and ability somewhere in the front rows of that Colorado theater.
May God in His inifinite wisdom and mercy take into His care those innocent victims and may He grant comfort and solace to their grieving loved ones.
I my state once they turned and ran away you could not continue to shoot .......doing so could put YOU in jail!
Jack , what state are you in?
In Texas you would get a Hero's parade and a key to the city! ;D ;D
Ohio.......A person may only use the amount of force that is reasonably necessary to repel the attack on his person and no more.
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For the sake of argument, I would offer that the two armed men could as well have been retreating to a safer firing position...once the battle was joined with an assailant who was not only armed but who had fired the weapon, I would have felt unsafe letting him out the door without a hail of bullets to encourage his continued retreat. In any case, Ayoob recently testified that a modern pistol in the hands of an adrenalin surged shooter can fire 5 rounds in something just over a second...too fast for the mind to process that the assailant has turned to retreat.
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As we continue to see more & more of these Shootings, I am starting to think it is Better toStick with a 45Cal as a Carry Weapon,. you can get use to any type of Pistol when you see these types of (Killers), in the case of this Dirty Killer I believe only a 45 would have been the Weapon of Choice.
Just my 2%
>:( >:(
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I think you're right but there aren't many of us who go to a movie packing a .45. That will probably change but these cowards will probably move on to churches and school cafeterias.
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I think you're right but there aren't many of us who go to a movie packing a .45. That will probably change but these cowards will probably move on to churches and school cafeterias.
Right you are Tracker.
Now I'm second guessing myself. And thinking if I should change from a .45 to a 10mm? ???
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I agree with Ratzo, and in fact when dress/situation allows my carry is a Kimber Ultra CDPII with one extra mag. I carry most everywhere including in church (where better?) but find the .45 difficult to hide when kneeling, so am conflicted on this one. The smaller "mouse gun" would be quite adequate if not optimal for a 4 to 10 yard confrontation in the street, but in a church, store, bank, theater the shot taken might be at a considerably greater distance, and a longer sight picture, better sights and a higher caliber would give a considerable survival advantage. May have to consider a really good shoulder holster or a "man purse"?
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fanny pouch Tom
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I guess we have to hope Rohrbaugh comes Quick with a 45 and at Least give a Close date, I think the 45 is going to be the Nr (1) Cal in this country for carry after seeing these Child Killers and what they can wear to protect there COWARD A--.
I know the 9mm is a Nice round and it has been around for a long time, but, you have to go with the time.
When that Child Killer was on the Stage, shooting, the only thing you could do was take cover and think about the gun you had on you a (Mousegun) and know you could do nothing, and yes shooting at him would have directed his shots to you and your Family and what I am saying is a 9mm is a Dam if I do and Dam if I don't. I hope the Business with Gun Free Zone Signs are Happy Now.
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fanny pouch Tom
Keep the R9 in your pocket to give you time to get the fanny pack turned around and "unpacked." Then use the .45 to allow you to get the .223 in the trunk of your car. Got it! ;D
John