The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: DDGator on September 24, 2014, 09:41:08 AM
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All,
Cargaritaville informed me that he was able to speak with with Dan Cox at Remington yesterday. Dan confirmed that that Remington wii honor the existing Rohrbaugh warranties. He also said that because of the nature of the Rohrbaugh guns, Remington felt that a high end gunsmith shop was needed. Remington is close to a deal with a shop that is centrally located in the U.S. The agreement is awaiting final approval from the legal dept at Remington, but this is expected to happen soon...and repairs will begin thereafter.
Obviously this is interesting on a number of levels. First, this is the most concrete thing we have heard about warranty repairs and this seems like a plausible way of handling them. Beretta has a similar process, where they have farmed out warranty repair work to a third party gunsmith. Remingston also seems to be acknowleding that Rohrbaugh pistols are "high end" and the customers will expect a high degree of quality in any work performed.
It is also interesting that they have chosen not to do this repair work in-house. As best I can tell, this is a change in direction from previous plans we had heard. This might be an indication that any type of Rohrbaugh pistol we see from Remington will be quite different than what we have now... Perhaps in design, quality and price point.
Of course this could be more empty promises, but this seems to be a step in the right direction for those who need warranty repair. What it means for the future of the R-9, however, is less clear.
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Good news.
I hope it is Cylinder and Slide, Fremont , NE. I had one of their race guns which was fantastic.
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I agree C&S would be a great choice.
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I wonder if Remington uses anyone already…it might be the same people. Also, Dan Cox said that they were centrally located in the US. Food for thought.
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Yeah, "centrally located" is kind of vague... And largely unimportant. Do I care if I am shipping my gun to Nevada or to Tennesee? Not really. They are supposed to go overnight either way. Interesting that he would point out that they were centrally located as if we were going to drive there... ;)
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I posted the lead to this thread on the ongoing Rohrbaugh thread on the Seecamp Forum. For the benefit of those who are unhappy with their R9's, I also offered to buy the first 3 reasonably functioning R9's offered to me for $500 each. Doubt there would be any takers!
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Remington, and all gun manufacturers, want a trouble free gun. If they need repairs, it gets expensive. If Remington had to ship the Rohrbaughs R9s to Cylinder and Slide - "Whoa daddy" , that a big ticket repair. Usually a gun has a problem in 'one area', but I think Rohrbaughs are mystery guns. From what I have read, the R-brothers did a lot of retro work to fine tune an R9.
I am not knocking an R9, but guessing trouble shooting by Cylinder and slide would be $$$ expensive.
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I cannot see why Bill Laughridge might take on the task of providing warranty service for Rohrbaugh or Remington Arms. He already runs an extended backlog doing custom work and building very fine pistols. I have had work done by C&S and it is absolutely outstanding, but it did take SEVERAL weeks. They would be more than capable of working on the R9 and more than likely would have some great ideas on fine tuning them after analyzing the engineering that went into their design, but it would probably be a poor business decision for him to take on this particular headache and additional work. Remington is not known for spending lavishly of late. Would be nice though to think that he and his smith's would take a look at the R9 and come up with a game plan for any changes that might be made in the future.
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Men, when I suggested C & S, even though they would do a great job, my comment was a bit tongue in cheek because of the "centrally located" reference.
Let's face it for Josh's and Bob's sake, anything would be better than what they have now
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Why don't they just hire Eric and Carl to do the repair work on a subcontract basis?
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I do not think that either would have any interest. I believe from what I have read they had their own problems which likely was the last straw from them in the business. You know who might be a great fit? Wilson. They are expanding their facilities and had some sort of previous relationship with Rohrbaugh. They are in Montana, that is sort of centrally located I guess although being way up north. They are also opening a facility in Connecticut. They certainly have the facilities and machinery and talent to take on the task. Would be a great choice, yes too wishful thinking.
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The R9 Covert (I have one) was a standard R9 sent to Wilson for it's proprietery finish and tuning, the sold at a premum price. Wilson Combat should have some expertise in the firearm, but the question then would be, do they have the interest?
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I think one criteria that the Shops that Remington is dealing with is the number of "in spec parts" that will be available for use in the repair.
I have sent a few guns back to Smith and Ruger for repair and I am amazed at what all they do replace. Look at Josh's Solo, new barrel, extractor , springs, and sear. This is how repair works. Replacing parts that might be bad is cheaper than replacing one part, reassembling the pistol, and test firing and going back and disassembling again and replacing something else and back to the test range.
How many parts are available? Also a lot of manufacturers literally end up with barrels of out of spec parts in their storerooms. Who knows what is good and what is not. It puts the repair station in a bad situation.
It could be impossible without a "running factory" support. JMO
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There are some parts... I suspect that guns that cannot be fixed when parts run out will be replaced with comparable Remington guns. :o
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If this rumor is true and parts are available, Robar is also a possibility to do R9 warranty work.
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Any thoughts on whether it could be Cogan?...Alabama is centrally located. They definately know the gun.
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To the best of my knowledge Wilson is in Berryville Arkansas. Had no idea about the deal with Remington....have had an R9 for years and literally just picked up another one the other day. When I went online to purchase some additional mags I found out. I find it very understandable that the brothers sold the business but think it's not been handled particularly well by Remington or Freedom group. Super poor customer service to leave your future customers just hanging!
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Sounds good to me. I will sit tight a bit longer before I start another run at trying to get something done with mine the hard way.
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Phsimone, what was the problems that the Rohrbaugh brothers was having that made them want to sell the company?
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Not to preempt Phsimone but Superstorm Sandy was one big blow to their factory and homes. Also, you can do the math on ~ 6600 guns sold over a 10 year period.
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To at least one of their homes, but the factory was fine after Sandy.
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They were certainly put in a very difficult place financially, between Sandy, payroll, suppliers, rent etc. and limited production. I have the utmost respect for the brothers "R" and do wish them the best in any future endeavors. They created a little marvel. Hopefully one of them will remain on board as a consultant in order to maintain the quality of the finest pocket 9 made no matter whose name is on the future iteration. I have read the other may spend more time in the arts (music). I have owned several R9s over the years and never had a problem with any of them. I am down to three and still take one to the range every 6 weeks or so. Thankfully I do have a few extra springs. I do keep it clean and properly lubricated, even more so now. My only concern is slide pins at this point, I am very careful during take downs.
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There wasn't much that was "fine" on the South Shore of Long Island after Sandy. If the factory were left intact no one could come to work because of the devastation. I lived in Long Beach as a commuter for several years and that town was virtually wiped out. Sandy was the beginning of the end for a small business like Rohrbaugh that operated on thin margins for the reasons mentioned by Phsimone.
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If the R9s were the finest micro 9mm ever made, then they would be fetching $2,000 on bun broker. And why would Remington take on Rohrbaugh's warranty? They got a R51. And their R51 solution was simply to 'Give you a new gun'.
To build a new R51 may cost Remington $150 - but to repair an old R51 may cost $250. If Remington did buy Rohrbaugh, and do intend to warranty the pistol, they will just do a redesign and give you a new one.
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The future of the R9, if any, is all speculation at this point. Remington will do what is best for them and for now it appears that the R9 is on the back burner.
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The future of the R9, if any, is all speculation at this point. Remington will do what is best for them and for now it appears that the R9 is on the back burner.
BIG +1 well put
the "5-12" message has always said "third party" ...for repair
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the factory wasnt on the south shore. it was in the area of long island ave. the center of long island. i live not that far away, the factory was fine. there was no major damage or flooding in that area. The electricity there was only out a few days and people were able to get around pretty well in a few days after the trees were cleared from the local roads. You cant compare what happened to long beach to what happened to deer park.
on a personal level for the owners as far as their homes on the south shore by the water of course it was total devastation, but the factory was not.
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Although Deer Park is located in the center of Long Island and away from flooding and highest velocity winds and gusts and the building Rohrbaugh was located was a fairly stout brick structure it had a flat roof. Flat roofs are notorious for failure during hign wind and rain events. It probably failed. However they would have had insurance to cover any losses I would think. Building Codes on L.I. are not as rigorous as they are in Florida and much of the Gulf Coast. As it has been said with say 6500 units sold over ten years for a gross of around $6,500,000 or about $650,000 per year gross. Lets give them a extremely generous profit margin of 20% that would leave $130,000 profit per year for the Rohrbaugh brothers to share and subtract whatever percentage any investors were entitled to from that total and you have a real difficult situation. This is just another story of an new business with a great product that did not have the venture capital necessary to keep their costs as low as possible. Much of the parts manufacturing process needed to be in house. No third parties. except maybe grips, magazines and springs, in order to maintain a price point which is competitive with the industry. Once again between salaries, rent, insurance, electric, debt service and investors they had a tough way to go.
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Also, taxes in N.Y. are on the high side. The factory was closed for approximately one week following Sandy and wasn't up to full production until early January following landfall on Oct. 29.
DDGator
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Rohrbaugh / SHOT Show Updates
« on: January 06, 2013, 12:20:53 AM »
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Hello all,
I recently heard from the Rohrbaugh brothers and wanted to update everyone.
Following all the problems with Superstorm Sandy, the factory is finally back to full production as of Jan. 2. However, Rohrbaugh will not be at the SHOT Show this year, and there are no new products to announce at this time.
I am sure this is disappointing for many of you (and me too), but it's really not hard to understand. Karl lost his house and his boat in the storm, and others were similarly affected. This has been VERY disruptive, and they all have been focused on rebuilding their business and their lives.
I know that we all wish the Rohrbaugh extended family the best in getting through this...and they will. But, the time and effort that could be spent on developing new models has been spent just surviving.
Of course, I will still be covering the SHOT Show -- I just won't be making my first stop at the Rohrbaugh booth. More on that later.
Thanks,
Duane
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where did you get the roof failed? the roof didnt fail. the only rooves i saw with damages were where trees had fallen on them. we didnt actually get all that much rain out of the hurricane. the flooding was from high tides combined with surges.
the hurricane may have been the final nail in the coffin financially due to personal loss of houses and personal property, but not the factory itself. it probably wasnt up to full production because of the personal losses the two brothers had to deal with. people on the shore lost everything.
yes that isnt a tremendous amount of guns sold over ten years. im sure the profit margins were very thin.
quote author=Phsimone link=topic=7477.msg83852#msg83852 date=1411919670]
Although Deer Park is located in the center of Long Island and away from flooding and highest velocity winds and gusts and the building Rohrbaugh was located was a fairly stout brick structure it had a flat roof. Flat roofs are notorious for failure during hign wind and rain events. It probably failed. However they would have had insurance to cover any losses I would think. Building Codes on L.I. are not as rigorous as they are in Florida and much of the Gulf Coast. As it has been said with say 6500 units sold over ten years for a gross of around $6,500,000 or about $650,000 per year gross. Lets give them a extremely generous profit margin of 20% that would leave $130,000 profit per year for the Rohrbaugh brothers to share and subtract whatever percentage any investors were entitled to from that total and you have a real difficult situation. This is just another story of an new business with a great product that did not have the venture capital necessary to keep their costs as low as possible. Much of the parts manufacturing process needed to be in house. No third parties. except maybe grips, magazines and springs, in order to maintain a price point which is competitive with the industry. Once again between salaries, rent, insurance, electric, debt service and investors they had a tough way to go.
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I think we can all agree that Superstorm Sandy didn't do Rohrbaugh any favors.
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i think we can.
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Sandy was definitely a problem, although damage at the factory itself was minimal. There was, however, an enormous personal toll.
I can't argue with the analysis of profit over the years. Even if the numbers aren't quite right, no one was getting rich selling the number of guns they did. The irony of that is compounded by the fact that the market was strong and they could sell every one they could make.
There is an interesting story to be told here...someday. Nothing earth shattering, but a lot of stuff that just didn't go quite right, leading to a sale that no one really wanted to make.
Karl and Eric are great guys that did something great -- that ultimately did not work out as they planned for many reasons beyond their control. I don't want to pry into their personal business to say a lot more than that.
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Thanks, Duane; there had to be more than met the eye on this evolution.