The Rohrbaugh Forum
Miscellaneous => The Water Cooler -- General Discussions => Topic started by: JoshA on January 17, 2015, 04:05:14 PM
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Okay I ordered some +p+ for my Glock the other day and found it interesting and somewhat confusing when I saw this sticker on the package. Duane do you have any answers? Anyone? Someone? Thanks.
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Duane is probably on his way to SHOT 2015, so I'll jump in with my two cents.
Unless you live in some "Nanny" jurisdiction that has sought to prohibit the use by civilians of +P+ ammunition labeled "FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT USE ONLY" (a jurisdiction that has not yet had such an absurd prohibition challenged and struck down in court), there is no problem with civilian use of such ammunition for self-defense. The "LEO" label is actually a marketing device by manufacturers to advertise the product's effectiveness. Furthermore, in the unfortunate event that you were required to use +P+ ammo to save yourself or others, it could be very helpful in any defense that you availed yourself of the same load recommended for LEOs in their sworn duty "to protect and defend."
Further, deponent sayeth not.
[Edited to correct typo.]
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Ok Richard. That is very helpful. The tag in the photo didn't do anything to motivate me to buy it I can assure you, but quite the contrary. I became instantly concerned as to the legal ramifications I would find myself in if I had to defend myself or another innocent.
They should consider changing their advertisement campaign if that's all it is IMO.
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Another possibility for the LEO label is so that the manufacturer covers, aka CYA, itself from the ammo used in a less than capable handgun. Presumably, law enforcement agencies adhere to a minimum standard weapon which individuals may not. That being said, most modern day handguns meet the standard unless otherwise prohibited, such as the R9 and others. Strictly on a personal basis I don't feel the necessity to carry +P+ ammo in any gun.
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I have to agree with tracker on this one.
I would not run a lot of +P+ through any of my guns.
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I won't run much, but wanted to try some out. I doubt it will hurt my G27. It runs .40 and .357 Sig too. I bet it wouldn't be a problem in any full size handgun. It doesn't produce quite the velocity as the .357 Sig.
I have to take it off of my bucket list. Haha
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Velocity junkies unite.
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In reviewing my initial post in this thread, I see that my rumination (perhaps influenced by a couple of glasses of fine Merlot) on a possible defense for civilian use of +P+ ammunition in a self-defense situation might be interpreted as a recommendation of those loads. I did not inteand to make any such recommendation. In fact, as I have often noted on the Forum, I am actually a member of "The Bigger Rock" school of thought and do not use +P+ ammo in any of my firearms.
I also agree with comments above on the stress that +P+ ammo places on any firearm, noting in addition that it presents the possibility of over-penetration.
Here is a link to a discussion of the subject that may be worthy of review:
http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/2013/02/what-is-p-and-p-ammunition.html
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I did not infer from your post that you recommended the use of +P+ ammo. You were only addressing the legality of such loads for civilian use in the face of an "LEO Only" label on the box, which was entirely correct from my point of view. This discussion has been both helpful and informative.
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Velocity junkies unite.
This reminds me of a guy I used to see at our range. I did not know his real name but everyone called him "Magnum Matt".
I was shooting a lot of rifle in those days and had some 22-250's that would shoot 1/2" at 200 yds if I did my part. Magnum Matt always was shooting 220 Swifts and laughed at my rifles. Matt did not care if he could hit a refrigerator at 50 feet as long as the bullet got there fast.
I was watching him shoot one of his Swifts one day with some of his super hot 40 grain loads. On about half the shots, the lead core was melting out of the bullet as it flew and left a smoke trail similar to the contrails airplanes leave. Magnum Matt was pleased as punch.
Later I was talking to my Gunsmith who knew Matt and he told me some other stories. Matt loaded up some super hot loads to go prairie dog shooting. He gets up to South Dakota and it was about 105 degrees out. The first afternoon a case rupters and blows the mag well out of his rifle, so he has to come home.
My Gunsmith also told me he stretched the frame on a K frame Smith with his 357 hand loads and ruined it. Neither I or my Gunsmith had ever heard of that being done.
Magnum Matt, a true Velocity Junkie.
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That's awesome! Do you have his number? I was thinking of starting to hand load and need some pointers. These double tap 357 sigs and +p+ 9mm gold dots are just not quite making me happy.
Need...
...More ...
...Speed!
Haha. Good stuff.
As for the 9 mm +p+ I am interested to see how it performs. I'm pretty content with 9 mm +p, but also think the extra powder MAY serve a place with some of today's short barrels. Kinda makes sense if the pistol is constructed in a way that can handle the load. Not that I want to range practice all day with cases of +p+.
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When I was in junior high school I was target shooting one summer day with a friend who had an old trapdoor single-shot .22 rifle. If memory serves, it was an early Hamilton Model 27 chambered for short and long .22. Anyway, I was standing next to him when the old girl "gave up the ghost" - spectacularly blowing out her breech block. Neither one of us was injured but it made a lasting impression on my then young mind.
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Josh says
As for the 9 mm +p+ I am interested to see how it performs. I'm pretty content with 9 mm +p, but also think the extra powder MAY serve a place with some of today's short barrels. Kinda makes sense if the pistol is constructed in a way that can handle the load. Not that I want to range practice all day with cases of +p+.
The trouble I see with +P+ ammo is there are no specs on it. I am sure Speer is putting out a safe product when used as intended. That to me means full sized law enforcement type service pistols and not short barreled pocket guns.
Your G27 is built like a full sized pistol and is probably OK. The only potential problem is that the Glock barrel does not fully support the case and there is a potential to blow out there. That problem is usually associated with the 40 S&W and !0mm Glocks and not the 9mm. I would call Speer and ask.
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Josh:
For what it's worth:
http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f56/glock-p-p-ammo-what-does-glock-say-37755/
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As you know hand loads are not recommended in factory Glock barrels. Many years ago on my first CHL range qualification with a BHP 9 mm I carelessly threw some locally purchased hand loads in my range bag. The long and short of that mistake is that the left wooden grip blew off my pistol on one shot during qualification. Nothing was wounded but my pride and the instructor said that I was through for the day. Fortunately, I persuaded him to give me another chance with a backup Colt Gold Cup I had in my car and factory ammo and all ended well. I haven't fired a reload since.
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That's awesome! Do you have his number? I was thinking of starting to hand load and need some pointers. These double tap 357 sigs and +p+ 9mm gold dots are just not quite making me happy.
Need...
...More ...
...Speed!
Haha. Good stuff.
😁K, I was just kidding. No hand loading for me.
However, I have been running quite a bit of the Georgia Arms stuff since someone (I think Tracker) mentioned it on here. I've had good success with it and the .40 and .357 sig is remarkably priced. I just received some as a matter of fact. Since these are made with the precision of a factory load, would you fellas feel ok about running them in a Glock? I have so far, but want your take on them since they are "reloads".
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Most of my handguns have never had a factory round fired through them. Until the last five years the only ammunition I used were my own handloads. This includes the four Glocks that I own. I will say that I have never ran any handkloads through a R9. XR9, or my Solo's. I have used them in my PM9 and Pocket Nine though.
One does have to watch cast or swaged lead bullets in pitols with Polygonal Rifling such as Glocks and Kahrs.
I think all owner's manuals specifically forbid the use of handloads for insurance reasons. Smith and Wesson has a Tech Rep who specifically answers handloading questions and I have talked with him often.
I have found reloading to be a very safe and rewarding hobby through the years and has made me a better shooter,
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Your hand loads are an entirely different matter. No doubt, you have saved thousands by rolling your own, in addition to controlling your ammo in a precise manner.
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Your hand loads are an entirely different matter. No doubt, you have saved thousands by rolling your own, in addition to controlling your ammo in a precise manner.
I guess I misunderstood you tracker.
The most rewarding part of reloading is the precision rifle game. It is amazing what on can achieve by varying components, powder charges, and dimensions. The biggest advantage that I have found is being able to set the bullet out so it is very near or sometimes even touching the rifling. One must be careful as this raises pressures but accuracy can be amazing
If you have the room and the time, I would recommend loading to anyone.
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No time here. I am too busy posting on this site. It's wearing and exhaustive work, but someone has to do it.
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If you have the room and the time, I would recommend loading to anyone.
I would enjoy loading my own ammunition, but my little wife asked me not to take up the practice shortly after we first met. She said it was because she was reluctant to have cans of powder in the house. However, I think it was because I had the poor judgment to show her an advertisement for Dillon presses with that blonde model they employed. ;)
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It may have been the price tags more than the Model.
The powder will not cause an explosion but it is definitely an accelerant.
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Mike Dillon has an interesting life story. He was an airline pilot whose hobby was rebuilding and flying warbirds. Below is the shortened story of how he started making reloading machines.
http://www.dillonprecision.com/about_us.html
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Tracker:
That is a fascinating story by Mike Dillon. The only problem is that I now again have that old "itch" to take up loading my own ammunition.
Even though I keep fulfilling items on my bucket list, the list seems to get longer the older I become.
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There is nothing wrong with longer lists. I call that life's positive yield curve.