The Rohrbaugh Forum
Rohrbaugh Products and Accessories => Rohrbaugh R9 (all variations) => Topic started by: BlueC2 on March 06, 2015, 05:01:53 PM
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All,
I wanted to ask the advice of folks here as to how they would handle my current situation. A couple weeks ago I purchased what was described as a NEW IN BOX UNFIRED R9 Elite.
I paid a premium price but it was described as new with everything you would expect in a collectible including the outside box.
Here is the GB listing: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=467579915
Here is what arrived when I picked it up today:
(http://www.electrawatch.com/R9/Kennel/EliteDamage1.jpg)
(http://www.electrawatch.com/R9/Kennel/EliteDamage2.jpg)
(http://www.electrawatch.com/R9/Kennel/EliteDamage3.jpg)
(http://www.electrawatch.com/R9/Kennel/EliteDamage4.jpg)
Initially I thought that it was holster wear and that is was just a used gun being sold as new (the mag well marks also indicate that the mag was in and out a lot). After sending the seller photos they think it looks like drop damage on pavement.
I contacted the seller and they claim that the gun was new and must have been dropped by my FFL.
My FFL (who knows me and that I am a collector) claims that the gun showed up damaged.
My FFL is carpeted so if someone there dropped it they would have had to gone outside with it.
What should I do?
Thank you for your help.
Ryan
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Also the outer cardboard box was no where to be found when I picked it up today :(
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That is a gross misrepresentation of the gun's condition in the ad. Interesting, they said, "AS IS, new in the box" but "no refunds or exchanges." I would start with Gunbroker if you haven't already. They probably have a "no mea culpa" clause somewhere in their statement of conditions of sale. There is no way this gun was dropped and damaged in all of those different locations. At the very least, rate this seller as poor to fraudulent on the G/B website.
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He would be refunding for sure....his pictures didn't show one angle were all the problems..sorry that you have to deal with this
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Wow Ryan. . . . . That is just wrong on the part of this seller! DEAD WRONG! Funny thing is I remember R9s coming in for warranty repair that had just that type of damage on the nose of the frame from dropping it on cement, like in a driveway or at a range. In one instance, the guy even said I did it! From then on, we took photographs of any R9 that came in as I was opening the box it was sent in. Also, I can see if the left hand grip was removed, you can see there is quite a bit of anodizing worn off the edge of that frame. NEW!? . . . . . uhhhh, No, it's not. Seeing you paid the "Buy It Now" price of almost $1,900.00 for it, I would squawk like a dying bird to that dealer. Sad to see such a good guy with no problem paying top top dollar for something get the shaft. Sorry for being blunt, but I was not brought up like that, but the seller!? . . . . . Shameful, to say the least.
Yeah, this dealer needs to do a refund. . . . . . . Now!
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He would be refunding for sure....his pictures didn't show one angle were all the problems..sorry that you have to deal with this
Agreed
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This is a weird one. The seller has excellent feedback so one would assume that he is honest. The FFL is known and trusted by you. I have a problem with no refund sales but in this case the seller would probably say the same thing. I think you are screwed.
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If I may be as so bold to say I remember that particular R9 with the hit on the nose. That was years ago now. When it came in for repair, I showed Karl the damage. We instructed Maria to phone the owner about the damage on the front of the frame right away . . . . . He said there was no damage and blamed us. All I'll say is that didn't sit too well with us.
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Caveat Emptor seems to apply. That pistol was clearly not "as new" and was certainly never dropped on a carpet. He should clearly refund your money but I suspect he will not. Should that not happen, IMO you should clearly complain to GB and give him a zero rating and "refresh" that rating every so often on GB and any other forum that you discover he frequents.
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If you paid by credit card, notify the cc company to put a hold on the purchase in full for a fraudulent misleading sale. If you used Bank of America, Mastercharge, or Discover, you have a problem on your hands as they tend to favor the merchant. If you used American Express Co., you are golden. Notify them about the misleading sale, and instantly they put a hold on the merchants account for the full amount, and credit your account for the full amount. They then investigate. I have been with American express Co. since 1976. They have never failed me. If you notice that a merchant won't take American Express Co., then there is a reason for it. When I purchase a firearm on any of the gun auction sites, I always favor those who take American Express Co. first. Good luck.
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I agree with the AMEX comment; unfortunately, too many of us take the easy way out with Paypal. I will certainly rethink my purchases in the future as a result of this one. Also, many merchants don't accept AMEX because it just simply charges them more to make the transaction. I have always had the same positive resolution experience with AMEX.
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If I may be as so bold to say I remember that particular R9, or at least another Elite that came back with the same hit on the nose. That was years ago now. When it came in for repair, I showed Karl the damage. We instructed Maria to phone the owner about the damage on the front of the frame right away . . . . . He said there was no damage and blamed us. All I'll say is that didn't sit too well with us.
Eric,
Did you by any chance replace the slide? This is the only Elite or Elite Premium I have ever seen with the most recent slide assembly (U.S.A has periods vs just USA). That was the reason that I bought it as I thought it must have been one of the very last Elites made but part of me also thought that the Elites were discontinued well before the updated slide assemblies. If the latter is true it would be definitive proof that the gun was not NIB.
Very suspicious that all of the GB photos manage to avoid showing the damaged areas.
I will give the seller the opportunity to make things right, if not will call the cc company (BoA Visa) and will file a fraud claim with GB.
Thanks again for the help guys.
Ryan
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Positive feedback for the seller, or not -- this seems fishy to me. The pictures were well-chosen.
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I agree, Duane, the photos shown in the G/B ad appeared to be from a different Elite than the one that was shipped to Ryan.
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I think it was the same gun - just very well chosen angles to hide damage.
When I started buying guns online I got burned by an early R9 with a cracked slide not shown in photos. After that I was hyper vigilant for a long time and always would request lots of pictures and always tried to avoid sending money orders. After many problem free transactions I let my guard down and it bit me.
With these type of things one can never be too careful I won't be letting my guard down again.
Thank you everyone for your help
Ryan
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My pistol smith has cautioned me to never buy a used gun. That is very good advice but increasingly more difficult with Rohrbaughs.
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To be honest it would be very hard to tell a well taken care of low round count used gun from a new one even in person and basically impossible online.
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IMO, they could all be considered used guns at this point unless proven otherwise.
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What about pursuing the fraud protection route with gunbroker IF your credit card dispute doesn't work out favorably? If you do look at this option it would only cover $400 of the purchase (Better than a sharp stick to the eye) and it needs to take place within 60 days of the purchase. I think Gun Broker may be more inclined to assist in pressuring the fraudulent seller if you were pushing this approach. They don't want to pay out $400.
http://www.gunbroker.com/User/BuyerProtection.aspx
That being said, I have had excellent results using the dispute in the past on 2-3 occasions with visa or MC.
I have heard that when you inspect a gun at your FFL if it isn't what you expect you should refuse it. I understand that's too late to do now, but for the rest of us does anyone know if this is correct?
Best wishes Ryan. Please keep us apprised of how gun broker and this seller handle matters.
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Eric (or others),
If I disassemble the gun where would you see wear on a used gun that would not be there on a new gun?
Thanks,
Ryan
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Good Morning everyone,
Ryan ~ To answer one of your previous questions about this particular firearm:
After looking at the photos you have attached here, and also looking at the photographs the seller has listed on Gunbroker, I do in fact remember this R9 more as my memory kicks in. The more I think about the gun that had the damage on the nose, which I showed to Karl, this IS that gun. There was also damage to the slide like you see on the frame. Yes, I replaced the slide with the then updated slide with the dots in between the USA in "MADE IN U.S.A.". If you removed the slide, give a look to the rails and the barrel to slide lockup area. If new, but just test fired at the factory (3 - 6 rounds), you will see some "seating" of the parts and even some minor scuffing and removal of the black anodizing on the frame. Anything in excess from that, and the gun has had a few magazines worth of ammunition run through it. Judging from the magazine well, that R9 has had quite a few rounds through it to get that area that worn. But what do I know!? . . . . . (My poor attempt at levity - excuse this ole coot - lol). Let's hope you can reason with the seller (read: Gun Store Owner) and get a full refund on this well used R9 and we can move on. Perhaps, just perhaps, the seller (the FFL store) was told it was NEW by the actual owner, who may have just given the store owner this gun to sell, told the gun store owner this "little story" of it being absolutely NEW and UNFIRED. As I mentioned, he denied that the damage was there on the nose when he sent it in to us, so his "tales" precede him. This statement comes, as you may say, from "A Reliable Source".
Regards,
Eric R.
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Eric,
Thank you for the definitive info o guess that settles it. I will present this to the seller and keep your name out of thing. Thanks again for your help!
Ryan
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Eric,
What is the significance of replacement slides made without the periods between USA?
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Hey Tracker,
Well. . . . . after mentioning that here with Ryan's "NEW" gun, I thought that question might be asked. I was going to start a separate thread on that and keep this thread for Ryan's issue with that seller. Let's do that now so this stays on topic and I'll answer that question shortly in a new thread to keep things clean and organized.
Eric R.
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I wanted to update the group that the seller and I have resolved this.
After sending additional photographs and videos the seller acknowledged that they must not have inspected the gun well enough when they took it in on trade and that they just took the sellers word that it was a NIB gun. I tend to believe his story as he was very apologetic after he saw the photos of the wear to the frame under the slide that prove that the gun was used. He offered a full refund or to just refund the delta in price between a shooter and a collectible. I decided to keep it as a shooter and will work on cleaning up the frame.
Thank you to everyone for your help and a big thanks to ECR for offering to speaking with the seller even though it ended up not being necessary.
Thanks Again,
Ryan
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Excellent news Ryan. I hope the used gun price was low enough for the well used R9. Evidently it was as you were able to keep it!
If you have any photographs from the inside of that gun, you can pm those to me for assessment. Ah hm. . . . No charge, of course. lol. 8)
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That is good news Ryan, I am glad he made it right with you.
I bought an Auto Mag one time that had really $hitty pictures, but was listed as MINT, LNIB. I paid pretty much top dollar for it.
When it arrives, it is not used, it is used up! I called him and told him I was sending it back as it was not as described. He said I did not ask enough questions. I said what was I supposed to ask:
"How mint is it? How like new is it?
He would not take it back, but sent me $500 and said take it or leave it so I took it.
That is really the only on-line problem I have ever had.