range report...not good

[prydwen]

took my new P9S to range along with a kel-tec p32 and my hi-power for some relaxing shooting...the P9S proved itself to be a jam-o-matic...very disappointing.  One full magazine of 115 gr FMJ went fine...95 gr JSP failure with first magazine, a double feed that would get a guy killed while clearing.  On to Gold Dot 115 gr JHP, 2 mags full and 2 interesting jams where bullet nosed into lower feed ramp and stuck..and I mean STUCK with slide open...took quite some time to hold slide and force magazine out with finger (pinching finger in process as slide finally released)...TWICE this happened.
ok I figure 24 rounds, 4 magazine loads...3 failures (75% failure rate for magazine loads)...all failures catastrophic in a fight.  Combat save your six gun? hardly! I am no newbie at shooting...over 30 years in law enforcement and an armorer on S&W and Colt...and this is worst jamming pistol in maiden voyage I can remember owning, EVER.  if it does not improve in a few more sessions, I'll sell it back to its maker if he'll have it. by-the-way the browning and the kel-tec did fine, thank you. Do I sound unhappy with this pistol..I am.  

[prydwen]

after cleaning the guns from earlier this morning and looking at the R9S these are my preliminary comments on what I suspect is the problem:
a. magazine springs too weak...this thing cycles fast and needs stout mag springs to present next round PDQ...
b. feed ramp too short and too sharp an angle...a bit more free bore in the chamber to permit more slope to the feed ramp and to make it a bit longer also might help prevent a sagging magazine spring/magazine permitting the round to nose into the base of the feed ramp and hang up there..I think the round actually hangs on the bottom lip of the feed ramp...this is no "tap, rack and bang" feeding problem it is an ALL STOP failure of the weapon much worse than a stove piped empty or a double feed to clear as it jams things up right snug.  I think the ramp/magazine interface is the problem area and that it is a design issue that could be fixed I think without any major redesign in the manufacturing process.
c.  Finally, ...I am thinking MAYBE under recoil the magazine is moving in its nest and this is aggravating the problems above.
It is hard to engineer this thing with this single effort, but I have a high degree of confidence in this preliminary analysis.  
The question is how to fix 'em at home? Or if even the attempt will void warranties and make this thing a very light boat anchor.  I'd like to hear how many folks out there are having these same problems as I described in my earlier report above...and if they think it is the same cause...and what "fixes" have been successful.  I'd like for this thing to work.  One thing a bet your 6 pistol really needs to do is WORK. If not, you are better off with a brick. Thanks.

[PursuitSS]

Check your magazines and see if they have a visable weld line on the spine. If they do they are the older design. Also the Rohrbaugh by most accounts is VERY ammo sensitive! My will only run on Winchester 115 gr. Silvertip. From the posts I've read some R9s like one load, others prefer another.

I'm comfortable enough with mine that I now carry it off-duty.

PursuitSS

[prydwen]

glad to hear it, maybe there is hope.
I am going to try again in a few days with remington 115 gr jhp and the silvertip and the regular winchester 115 gr jhp...
it did manage to digest without any stoppages, one magazine load..that was the 115 gr fmj..maybe JHP's with a long and slopping a bullet nose as possible will work...something to bridge the lower lip of the feed ramp.  STILL would like to see
Rohrbaugh's feedback on my suggestions...for the weapon to be this jam prone is something that can and should be worked out in production.

[ROKTMAN]

Sorry to see the pup is misbehaving.I wonder if a 147 grain ,long nose SXT type will work? I have yet to shoot mine.I will try the Gold Dots first as I have good luck with those on duty guns.Looks like this is an ongoing story of trial and error for us all.

[theirishguard]

Sorry to hear about your problems with the pup. If on the the next range session, you continue to have problems, call Rohrbaugh. They will be happy to help you.
Tom

[Brenden]

prydwen,
Sorry to hear your problems..

The pups that I have shot-including the one in my pocket-have shot without fail..

This is 4 different ones,one Deer Park and the others Farmingdales..

I have shot a VERY limited amount of "different" ammo in them,and not "equally" in amounts in each either..

My carry gun though has gobbled 115 STHPs,115 GDHPs,and WWB 115s in the 100 rnd value packs..

The 115 gr. STHPs have been suggested for the "finicky" pup I know..

I wish you luck in feeding the pup..

Brenden

[riffraff]

Prydwen,

My first R9 must be the most finicky on the planet.  The only load that It will feed reliably 100% of the time is the Aquila 65gr JHP.  Another load that is supposed to be good in problem guns is the Winchester Superclean 105 gr load.  I have some of these on the way and I have some Walther P-38 magazine floorplates to replace the factory floorplates that allow the magazine to seat deeper that has solved the jam problems for one other individual.  My R9 #2 is not nearly as finicky as #1 but still leaves a lot to be desired.  If all else fails I will try swaping out barrels and or entire slides between my 2 guns to see what effect this has on functioning of both as I suspect that this is what is done at the factory for guns returned for jam problems anyway.  The easiest route would be to return my guns to Rohrbaugh but I am stubborn and rarely do things the easy way.  Plus I learn more by doing it myself.  I always have the option of sending them to the heads in the shed for tweaking.

GOOD LUCK, DON'T GIVE UP, and keep us informed.

Mike

[prydwen]

riffraff, that just ain't right. Have you
asked the factory to look that that thing?
if mine is that way it will be history.
surely, the rohrbaugh people can't
be satisfied to let your gun be that?
I'd not want my name on it personally.
A 65 grain 9mm for defense? Is that good personal defense stuff? I can only guess
but my thought is that the light bullet results in
rather slow cycling and permits the slide to pick up
the next round...am full circle back to the
suspicions I have on my own about the nature of the problem.
It seems to me rohrabaugh could provide alternative barrel design that would retrofit into the pistol...and mags with stouter springs also and hell bent for strong recoil spring too maybe...if this is a common problem, it is a matter of design...and if design, it can be fixed with design modification.
what's a .22 40 grain?  

[R9SCarry]

Sad tale of woe - not good to hear.

I will not theorize any further than prydwen has already - added to which my pups are early ones and in fact the first is a safe queen, the second being the BUG/carry piece.

I shall tho follow progress and developments.

[prydwen]

waiting for new ammo.  When I get different kinds of ammunition I'll hit it again and see what happens.
I know this pistol was "built around" the 9mm cartridge..
do you think it would save time to ask WHICH 9mm cartridge?

[riffraff]

Prydwen,

I totally understand your frustrations but keep in mind that this pistol is built on the cuttting edge of just how small and light your can build a pistol that handles a 9mm round and will work and not hurt your hand, etc, etc,.  I am jealous of the reports from owners that seem to have no problems with Speer GDHP or Silvertips from their guns right out of the box.  That has not been my experience and as you know I do have a round that functions 100% reliably but it keyholes at 15yds everytime(Aguila 65gr hollowpoint).  UPS delivered another batch of ammo from two different sources today and I have some of the Win. Superclean 105 gr that has been recomended  so the next range trip is another addition to the saga.  If you have not kept up with the P-38 magazine floorplate possibility then you might consider it.

There are two scenarios,  you can try to work thru your jam issues with info. from this board or you can pay the shipping and sent the gun back to the factory.  The only thing is that the second option does not guarantee that you will get back a gun that "feeds everything no problems".

I also agree with you and when I got my first R9, geez these mag springs seem kind of weak.  I can assure you that if the jamming problems were due to this only, it would have been remedied long ago so I am going to say that the mag springs are not the problem.  This has sort of been verified by some people haveing jam problems with the 3rd or 4th round in the mag but not the 1st or 2nd or the 5th or 6th.  

But anyway, I am with you in the dissapointment that your gun does not function perfectly right out of the box.  You and me ain't the first.

I would say that if an R9 doesn't function with 115 gr GDHP or 115gr Silvertips then send it back to the factory as DEFECTIVE.  I have not done that yet as I am a stuborn tinkerer and will find a solution if I can and send them back to the factory as a last resort.  

Stick with it.  When you run 3 jam free mags through the R9 it is a thing of beauty and very satisfying.

My opinions only, Mike

[prydwen]

OK, what's the deal on the p38 mag floorplates?
just replace with Walther p38 mag floor plate?

I intend to give this a fair try and evaluation before
abandoning it.  As I said before I would prefer this thing to work as it should...I'd like to be able to keep it and feel I can depend on it, but so far I am leaving it at home and it was not bought to be a desk ornament.  My next try will be with the old rem 115 jhp...these things are just almost FMJ and will usually feed and function is just about anything...I'll also run both Win 115 JHP rounds...and I am a handloader with a good old dillon 550B and may try some of my mid-level load hornady rounds also. In the meanwhile thankfully I have 32's and 380's I feel all happy about using in the p9's place. (in fact, my guess is the p9 would function better with a lesser cartridge and maybe SHOULD be a 380 or the 9x18 makarov caliber might be even better notion for it?) If the new ammo functions well I will proclaim it with blushing glee..if not, I'll let you guys know of my continuing failure to make this useful.

[prydwen]

reloads....anybody doing reloading for an r9?
with a loader and new brass...can adjust the overall length
(oal)...can crimp or not crimp or crimp lightly...can try fast and slow powders...(I'd think a faster powder for this one is best a quick "pop" and let that push the slide instead of a slow steady burn driving it back?)...and a variety of bullet shapes and weights..the variables are considerable...until, some happy day...the gun clips along purringly shooting little
tight groups....hopefully and then you have the right combination fully repeatable.  Has anyone done this stuff with good results?
I've done it before with a 41 mag and some other revolvers for accuracy and had some pretty remarkable results...imagine could tune round to the auto pistol just the same?  just never had to before.

[riffraff]

Prywden,

P-38 mag floorplates, yes just replace the originals with these.  I got mine from Numrich but have not tried them yet.

If I still had pistol loading gear I would try to develop a round for my R9's just as you have talked about.  A fast powder to give a good sharp jab to the slide and this would also cut down somewhat on the noise(many have remarked at the range,"that thing sure is loud") and would probably cut down on muzzle flash even though I have not fired my R9 at night I have a feeling it would be noticeable.  I recomend a heavy crimp to.

On the downside the manual states do not use handloaded ammo in the gun.  Of course that is in EVERY gun owners manual.  

Keep in mind that you can send it in for tweaking.  I have heard nothing but good things about Rohrbaugh's customer service.

Mike