Author Topic: all stainless version  (Read 19203 times)

Offline Novanglus

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Re: all stainless version
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2007, 06:09:18 PM »
IDM: Are you still planning on fabricating some contoured aluminum grips?
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Offline IDM

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Re: all stainless version
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2007, 10:38:31 PM »
Thanks for the info.
I have done some research into this. To the point that I have the paperwork to fill out and send in to become a ligit firearms mfg. I just hav not done so at this point. I co worker and I (back when I worked for General Atomics Aeronatical systems) were going to produce lowers for AR'15's but it was in California back when things were realy up in the air about firearms so we didnt do it.
It will be a longer process soI will if it happens get my sh*t in order.lol ;D
Thanks for the concern and info!!
Bryce
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Offline IDM

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Re: all stainless version
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2007, 10:41:18 PM »
Yes
Thay are in the works too.Im stuck at hame for a few days with my boys 14 months and 4 years. So I have no shop time and alot of compter time.!! So I started the reciver. Ive got about 60 hrs in it now and Im 80% done at this point.

Thanks
Bryce
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Offline IDM

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Re: all stainless version
« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2007, 04:19:05 AM »
Ok here it is!! :D :D
Most of the details are there. Not all!!
From this model I can give a 99% accurate weight calculation.
So we will know total how much more a stainless model will be, over the  alu.!! 8)
From this point I could send it out to a rapid prototype shop and get one in plastic for a check fit part. then if I had the money, I would  get it cast in Tie or SS. If only!!
Thanks for looking and your input!!
Bryce

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Offline riffraff

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Re: all stainless version
« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2007, 10:57:01 AM »
Bryce,

Here is another thought.

If you perfect a stainlesss steel frame you might be able to sell it to Rohrbaugh exclusivly.  There would be more money in it for you that way because of increased sales and the Rohrbaugh site gets a lot more traffic and therefore more potential sales.  You might talk to the R bros and maybe they could help with seed money for development but I am sure they would want an exclusive for your frame for that.  The R bros seem to farm out quite a bit of the work for the R9 so they may be more than happy to contract for your SS frame too.

Mike
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Offline DDGator

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Re: all stainless version
« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2008, 08:56:24 PM »
Bryce,

I think there are a wealth of legal issues here, including patent infringement on the Rohrbaugh proprietary design.  I would suggest you talk to Karl Rohrbaugh before going any further.

Thanks.

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Offline riffraff

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Re: all stainless version
« Reply #36 on: January 02, 2008, 09:56:58 PM »
Duane,

Thanks for bringing up an issue I had not thought of and also thanks for potentially throwing a 'wet blanket' on the idea.

Bryce,  Duane is right though.  I had not even thought of the possible patent infringement although I got a feeling that it would not be patent infringement as I know I have seen metal lowers for Glocks advertised in a gun mag and I bet they don't have Glock's 'blessing' to produce these either.

What about all the makers of AR 15 lowers too.

Even though I may not like it, information is better than no information.  Thank You Duane.

Duane, you might want to shoot Bryce a PM to be sure he gets the info.  He really should be made aware even though he a pretty smart guy and has been around the block in the manufacturing business.

Mike
« Last Edit: January 02, 2008, 10:01:41 PM by riffraff »
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Offline Richard S

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Re: all stainless version
« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2008, 11:37:10 AM »
Quote
Bryce,

I think there are a wealth of legal issues here, including patent infringement on the Rohrbaugh proprietary design.  I would suggest you talk to Karl Rohrbaugh before going any further.

Thanks.


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Offline riffraff

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Re: all stainless version
« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2008, 06:14:24 PM »
Yeah,

I understand about all the blood, sweat and tears put into a product and then someone builds it better but this 'other than aluminum lower' issue has been out there for the Rbros to take notice of for a loooong time.  I hope Bryce markets a SS lower just to rattle some cages.  Get off your a***s, give the customer what they want or somebody else will give the customer what they want.

It is called free market and Capitalism.  Funny how some people claim to love the American system untill someone else 'steps on their toes'.

I know this post is going to read a lot different than I intend.  It is intended to make the readers think.  It is not intended to intentionally, purposley p*** people off.

Just think about it.

Mike
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Offline DDGator

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Re: all stainless version
« Reply #39 on: January 03, 2008, 06:37:37 PM »
Well,

As for the Glock and AR parts (or 1911 for that matter), the patent protection period has expired.  You get 20 years max, then the protection lapses.  Glocks, ARs and 1911s, at least in their basic forms, are too old for protection.

As for RiffRaff's point, I disagree.  When someone puts their hard work, innovation and money into coming up with a patentable design, they should get the 20 years of profit off of it.  That has been part of the free market system for a long time.  Why should I bother to develop a product if someone else can swoop in, mic my parts, and start producing knock-offs?

If Bryce has done something innovative and incorporated the Rohrbaugh protected design, then he should negotiate to license the design and pay an appropriate royalty.  If he is just using a CAD program to reverse engineer a design and produce it in a different material...then I am not sure that he really has anything to sell.  No disrespect intended to Bryce.  Producing a stainless R-9 is certainly not beyond Karl's ability --in fact, they already did it once.  ;)

This is a pretty clear cut situation.  The only cage that will get rattled is Bryce's if he is infringing.   :o

Perhaps in 2025 everyone will start manufacturing Rohrbaugh knock-offs.   ;D
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Offline riffraff

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Re: all stainless version
« Reply #40 on: January 03, 2008, 07:46:13 PM »
Duane,

I understand your points but I rebutt with this thought.

If everyone else can do it so easily, why can't Rohrbaugh do it just as easily RIGHT NOW?  Not well, yeah we are working on it and then it turns out to be years later.  I ain't got that many years left.  SNAP it up Rohrbaugh.

Mike
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Offline IDM

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Re: all stainless version
« Reply #41 on: January 04, 2008, 01:25:28 AM »
Hey
I was just throwing out a idea of making them to see how much interest there is. And to show that It is not that hard to do such a thing. I am not planning on ripping off Karl. I have had a few ideas through the years that other have taken from me. so I've have been on both sides.  I also have done a bit of patent work for my self and clients, so I can speak with a little knowledge. I was hoping someone might have the Patent info for the R9. The only info I could find is for "Handgun and method of operating handgun " Pat#6,070,512 In this pat there is a vary slight resemblance of a r9. Nothing is the same. I may be missing something but It looks as if the original design was tossed out.  ??? Dose anyone know if Karl has a agreement with Seecamp?? Because it looks to me as if the R9 and seecamp were the same design.
Here is the seacamp trigger pat:http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=04428138&homeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft.uspto.gov%2Fnetacgi%2Fnph-Parser%3FSect2%3DPTO1%2526Sect2%3DHITOFF%2526p%3D1%2526u%3D%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsearch-bool.html%2526r%3D1%2526f%3DG%2526l%3D50%2526d%3DPALL%2526S1%3D4428138.PN.%2526OS%3DPN%2F4428138%2526RS%3DPN%2F4428138&PageNum=&Rtype=&SectionNum=&idkey=NONE&Input=View+first+page


Here is the R9?? pat.http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=06070512&homeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft.uspto.gov%2Fnetacgi%2Fnph-Parser%3FSect2%3DPTO1%2526Sect2%3DHITOFF%2526p%3D1%2526u%3D%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsearch-bool.html%2526r%3D1%2526f%3DG%2526l%3D50%2526d%3DPALL%2526S1%3D6070512.PN.%2526OS%3DPN%2F6070512%2526RS%3DPN%2F6070512&PageNum=&Rtype=&SectionNum=&idkey=NONE&Input=View+first+page

I am plannig on speaking with Karl next week, when they return. I will then see what the deal is.

Heck it may be easier to just reinvent the wheel and come up with a new gun totally!! I know I have the ability and knowledge. Not to mention the equipment!! lol

Legally I know I can make one for myself, and that's what I may end up doing.

I feel for Guy like Karl that I'm sure put allot of time into the design. it's vary impressive to me because He did it with little or no computer design ability. He had to depend on someone else. That can be expensive and time consuming.  With the use of 3D modeling I can do in the computer in a week what use to take month's with R&D and making prototype parts. The last time I spoke to Karl was when I was trying to get the dimensions for the grips. He told me that they didn't have any computer models. Everything is still on paper drawings. He never did get me the info I didn't want to bug him anymore so I just reversed it.

But for now I will just let it be to see what happens. I want to thank you all for you input and look forward from hearing more on this subject.
Thanks
Bryce
Bryce Proctor
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Predator and Predator B  Mfg. Engineer


Offline DDGator

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Re: all stainless version
« Reply #42 on: January 04, 2008, 01:41:04 AM »
riffraff,

Not only can they do it, they have already done it -- years ago.  I held the stanless frame prototype when I visited the factory.  Ultimately, they decided that an alloy frame better met Karl's vision for this gun.

Now, I suppose they are aware of the demand for a stainless frame model.  Frankly, I think the demand is probably a bit over-stated on the forum by the hard-core fans who hang out here.  Ultimately, lighter weight sells more guns across the board.  Its ironic that NAA fans complain the Guardian is a pocket brick and scream for alloy frames!   ;)  I guess the grass is always greener...

Karl wants to make money.  I am sure he will get around to the stainless frame as soon as it is practicable.  Right now he is selling the existing gun as fast as it will go out the door.  He has debts to pay and investors to satisfy.  New stuff, including a stainless frame, will likely come in due course.

Some of us waited years to get this gun to start with -- no reason to start getting impatient now.
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Offline Fud

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Re: all stainless version
« Reply #43 on: January 04, 2008, 03:31:23 AM »
I'll be honest with ya, I rarely carry my R9 due to accuracy & recoil -- the kick affects my aim. Most of the time I carry my Colt Pocket Nine -- slightly bigger and slightly heavier but those extra few ounces make a BIG difference in recoil translating into better accuracy.

I did carry my R9 on Christmas Eve & New Year's Eve because I needed DEEP concealment but I knew that I would be effective for only about a dozen feet.

When the budget permits, I plan on getting the R380. All other things being equal, the R380 should be a pussycat to shoot and a hit with a .380ACP will do more damage than a miss with a 9mm.

For these reasons, I'm also interested in an all-stainless model. Those few extra ounces should go a long way in taming recoil which, at least for me, translates into better accuracy.

Offline riffraff

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Re: all stainless version
« Reply #44 on: January 04, 2008, 07:40:39 PM »
Fud,

In the interem you might want to consider heavier grips to add some weight.  The brass has already been done and a SS set of grips could be made if you are willing to pay the price.  I have found that Bryce(IDM) is very reasonable in his charges even for first run aka the only ones in existance grips like the brass ones, 2 pair, that are probably on their way to me as we speak.

All,

I undestand that the R bros. are working as fast as they can to produce the guns.  That is why I believe that:

If Bryce is willing and able(he does have other commitments like National Defense) and Rohrbaugh is willing, the SS frames could be contracted to Bryce and Rohrbaugh would have the exclusive rights to MARKET them  and EVERYONE should be happy.

Does anyone see anything wrong in my line of thinking?  I really would like to make everyone happy and help make the R9 an even bigger success in the personal defense handgun market which is only going to grow in the future as more and more states enact 'shall issue' conceiled carry permits and more and more people in those states get their license's.

Mike
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