Author Topic: Is this better ammo for SD??  (Read 4637 times)

Offline hedrok

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Is this better ammo for SD??
« on: September 01, 2012, 12:19:40 PM »
Liberty has just come out with an ammo in 9mm, .40S&W and .45ACP that looks really interesting. IF...it really works as they say. 
Very light frangible bullet in a plated case with a +p load.  High velocities (2000 fps out of a 9mm and 1900 out of a .45... and a very large permanent wound cavity with an effective range of 25 meters. All of that , and extremely low felt recoil.
All that sure brings up some questions like:
What effect does 2000fps have on the twist rate designed for 1200fps (9mm)?
What happens after 25 meters with a very light bullet...50gr?
In most of my SD firearms +p is not an issue...as we all know, in the Rohrbaugh, it is.  Does the 50gr bullet change that restriction?  Does a a 78gr, 45ACP at 1900fps change the equation?
What happens in a pistol caliber, longer barreled, rifle or an "intermediate" barreled carbine?

I haven't been able to find any answers...maybe some of the more research informed folks here can.

 http://www.midwayusa.com/product/659755/product?cm_mmc=M_Spop-Email-_-Hot_Buy-_-Hot_Buy_83120123_1-_-45_ACP&cm_mmca1=bgmc714@gmail.com%20&cm_mmca2=CustNum=102792334

Offline Richard S

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Re: Is this better ammo for SD??
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2012, 03:01:54 PM »
Speaking solely for myself, I doubt that a lightweight frangible bullet would produce the penetration needed for consistently effective self-defense. IWBA's suggested specification values for mean penetration depth are greater than 12.5 inches and less than 14.0 inches.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/iwba.htm
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Offline Giraffes

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Re: Is this better ammo for SD??
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2012, 05:57:54 PM »
I did a lot of internet research when I was looking into Magsafe ammo for SD. From what I read, a lot of things had to be just perfect for the lightweight/high velocity rounds to be as effective as their claims. Once you take into account things like heavy clothing, penetrating an arm to reach the torso, etc., their effectiveness diminished greatly. I'll just stick to Speer Gold Dots for now. But I do enjoy seeing what innovative ideas different manufacturers come up with.

Offline Reinz

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Re: Is this better ammo for SD??
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2012, 07:09:42 PM »
It may be ok for a belly gun.  But I would not trust my life to it at 75 feet.

Speaking as a cast bullet manufacturer and reloader, there is just no mass there.   50 grains is half the size of a 380 bullet.

It sounds like they went for speed first, then 50 grains is about all that was left to fit into the equation; for a 9mm.

Every 12 inches past the muzzle is that ammo's enemy.  Speed is great, but you have to have mass.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 07:18:49 PM by Reinz »
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Offline hedrok

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Re: Is this better ammo for SD??
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2012, 09:55:59 PM »
I guess if we all lived in climates where shorts and t-shirts were all that was needed, these lighter weight, HV bullets might be just the thing...but it snows in Cleveland, so I'm not gonna try it. 
But, I still do wonder about some of the effects of radically lower projectile weights and 2X velocities then was designed into the guns when built. 
I may need to get a couple of boxes of 9 & 45 to try out  thru a short barreled carbine.  I've never experimented with anything like this before.  If anyone has a suggestion or two...I'm all ears...eyes,
whatever.
 

Offline Reinz

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Re: Is this better ammo for SD??
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2012, 11:15:43 PM »
I think I may have been too snap in my initial judgement.

A normal 223 round is 55 grains, but going 2700- 3000 fps.

Maybe there is something? here?  And only talking up to 25 yds, not 100.  In reality, it would be more like 7 yds.

I am now curious and not so dismissive.
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Offline hedrok

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Re: Is this better ammo for SD??
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2012, 08:51:21 AM »
I agree...cautiously curious.

Offline Ghost Chili

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Re: Is this better ammo for SD??
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2012, 09:50:39 PM »
I saw those as well.  Interesting ammo, but I think 50gr. is a bit too lightweight.  They might have higher velocity, but they are hollowpoints and my feeling is they will not penetrate enough.  I am sure they will produce devastating, but short wound channels like varmint bullets.  Perhaps if they made a sabotted solid 50gr. bullet in the 9mm case so it would tumble rather than expand?  The ammo brings to mind an episode of Mythbusters I saw where they were testing the lethality of various calibers fired at an underwater target.  IIRC, only the pistol bullet was able to hit the target due to its lower velocity and smaller stubby bullet.  Even the mighty .50bmg failed to hit the target with the bullet disintegrating upon striking the water. 

For me, I try to run what the cops use.  I figure if I ever have to shoot someone, that is one less thing they can hang me with. 

Offline C0untZer0

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Re: Is this better ammo for SD??
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2012, 09:20:53 PM »
If for some reason I was sold on lighter / faster 9mm rounds (which I'm not) I would go with something that's already proven - the Federal   9BPLE (Illinois State Police load)

It may not be the best the 9mm round but it does have a proven track record as attested to by coroners who dug the things out of dead bad guys who were shot by Illinois troopers.

Illinois has 4 real seasons, not as cold as Minnesota, but cold enough in the winter that people wear heavy jackets over layers of clothing.

But of course, this +P+ round shouldn't be fired out of an R9...

Offline Ghost Chili

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Re: Is this better ammo for SD??
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2012, 09:47:22 PM »
Yup.  I live in Minnesota and it gets pretty darn cold here.  In the winter, I have the benefit of being able to easily conceal a full size carry pistol and I like to load it with the heavier bullet weights.  Since this will be the first winter I will own a R9, I will probably give the Critical Duty 135gr. ammo a try.  Seems the silicone plug really helps prevent hollow point clogging with clothing debris and the added mass over a 115 or 124gr. bullet should help improve penetration through thick clothing.  Would be interesting if a 9mm solid wadcutter bullet would feed reliably.  I hear the 158gr. .38 special wadcutter loads are quite effective and penetrate fairly deep.  A 9mm pressure wadcutter should do even better I would think. 

Offline C0untZer0

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Re: Is this better ammo for SD??
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2012, 10:20:34 PM »
I think bullet technology is probably as good as it's going to get for 9mm, 40 S&W and .45 Auto

Unless the price of gold goes down to 6 an once  or they develop some new alloy or polymer or something that can do things that lead and copper can't - I don't think bullets from handgun cartridges can be made to perform any better than they are now. Just my opinion.

Some of the latest designs in 38 spl +P are outperforming the famed "FBI Load" - 158gr LSWCHP, at least in longer barreled guns.

Offline Reinz

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Re: Is this better ammo for SD??
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2012, 02:33:30 AM »
When another company/bullet comes along with unsatisfactory performance and nonconsistant customer service; I'll stay with what I KNOW works in my R9.

For the Ballistic Technoids, the Sept. issue of American Rifleman has a good article on Handgun Ammo Stopping Power.  100 loads were fired in ballistic geletin and the Author's own favorite load failed his own parameters.  This gives strong credibility.

My first statement was made before checking out the chart for 9mm in the article by the way, but holds true here as well.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2012, 02:35:18 AM by Reinz »
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