Author Topic: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle  (Read 8487 times)

wilco

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R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
« on: May 20, 2004, 05:53:33 PM »
and it aint a match pistol,and it aint something with which to teach a novice, and it aint exactly a  hunting pc. So it's a bit of a stretch to imply that no other guns exist, (or that none merit consideration or discussion).

Offline DDGator

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Re: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2004, 06:21:38 PM »
Just meant to be a bit of levity since this is a Rohrbaugh forum.  There are lots of places to discuss other guns, although its welcome here too...

Certainly the R-9 is not a solution to every problem.  In fact, its probably only a solution to one problem -- how to pack a service round into the smallest concealed gun possible.

I have lots of other guns for lots of other reasons.  
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wilco

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Re: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2004, 06:45:02 PM »
well, once a pc is small enough, and lw enough for a front pants pocket, making it smaller or lighter just hurts the user's ability to hit swiftly and repeatedly.  I think that Kahr stole Mr Rorbaugh's thunder, with their $600, 15 oz, 6" PM9 9mm.

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Re: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2004, 06:58:35 PM »
Maybe to some degree they did, but the R-9 is smaller in all dimensions (with all metal construction -- no plastic -- and no stamped, cast or MIM parts) and feels smaller yet.  I had a PM9 and found it on the large side for pocket carry.  The R-9 carries much easier to me.  

As for how it shoots, I can't yet say, but I look forward to finding out.
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Offline TexasBeard

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Re: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2004, 04:00:55 AM »
I had a Kahr P40; shot the best of any semi-auto I've ever had.  Pointed like a GOOD DA revolver, light enough, slim enough to conceal, plenty of punch.  Thought I'd hit on the perfect carry gun.  

BUT... Kahr has a fatal design flaw with the polymer frame mag catch; it has a *tiny* piece of steel embedded in the plastic mag catch that has a propensity of departing from the mag catch.  Thereby rendering the gun into a single shot, at best...   I traded it for a stainless K40 (too heavy) and traded that for a Glock27 (too bulky).   Now  back to a S&W 340SC most of the time, or a Keltec .380 ALL of the time (my NAA G32 has become my new pocket snake medicine on the farm replacing a .22mag mini-revolver).

I'm impressed by the side-by-side comparison with a KelTec .380.

BUT, for $900+/-, I'd expect a slide release and a side mount mag catch.  Kinda surprised they went the butt-mount mag catch.   If it had the butt-mount mag catch, I'd be raiding the cookie jar.   Fer now I'll stick with what I've got.

TexasBeard
(still lookin' for the "perfect" carry gun)
TexasBeard

Offline flyandscuba

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Re: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2004, 12:57:11 PM »
I think they left the slide release and  side mag catch off for good reason -- to make it as thin as possible.

Also, for it's intended use -- close in self defense, you will not be reloading.  If you need to do a mag change  in a confrontation of 7 feet or less, chances are you're history anyway! ;D

Seriously, the heel mounted magazine release actually gives you the highest level of security of not having your magazine depart from the gun during a stressful situation.  It is foreign to most US shooters, but with practice -- fast reloads are possible.

My HK P7 has the European heel mag release.  You learn to bring the fresh mag up and purge the spent mag with the same hand while holding the charged magazine.

Again, I feel fast reload of the R-9 was not within the intended design criteria.
I'm not a gun expert -- but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night...


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Re: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2004, 02:01:58 PM »
I agree with both of you to some extent.  I would prefer a traditional "American" style mag release, but I am not stressing over it.

My understanding is the heel-type catch was chosen for maximum secuirty for pocket carry -- no inadvertant releases.  That was deemed more important than quick mag changes in this gun.  It was a design choice, not a compromise.
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httRe: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2004, 11:29:41 PM »
Here is a pic of the heel release:

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Offline R9SCarry

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Re: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2004, 02:06:26 PM »
I'm with fly here ..... much as I'd like side mag release and slidelock etc .... in all realism .. no way could this be done here and still retain the slim profile.  Heel mag release doesn't bother me much ... a quick reload just requires that the mag needs pressed rearward to push catch out the way, that's all.

So much of gun design is compromize - and here the end result is I think exactly what ''Les Rorhbaughs'' had in mind at the outset.  Simple to me is often a way to go ... and about the only thing that needs a bit of a ''knack'' is holding slide open without a lock.  Otherwise, I reckon the D/A only approach has nailed the best mechanism.  I feel totally happy with my 1 + 6 ... and the trigger surprises everyone to whom I have shown the gun .. smooth as smooth.

As far as cost goes .. well, this pup has taken an all but incalculable amount of R&D .. at who knows what cost.  This has to be recouped and I'd wager that even after two years of expanding sales .. break-even will maybe still not be reached.  It HAS to be expensive.  Look at the tolerancing too - and materials choice .. as has been said .. no yucky MIM parts here. :)

Anyone'd think I was a fan of the R9 .... they'd be right! ;D
Chris - R9S
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Offline GeorgeH

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Re: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2004, 12:45:07 AM »
I love Kahr's but they are not a pocket pistol. The Rohrbaugh is.

This is a last ditch, close range, firearm that was designed to be as simple, small, and as light as possible.

The Rohrbaugh not intended to compete with the Kahr PM 9. It is not a compact service pistol. It is a personal defense/BUG. No more or no less.

This gun competes with the Seecamp 380, the NAA Guardian series, and to a lesser extent the Kel Tec's.

I own 3 Seecamps, a 25 and 2 32's. I also own a Kel Tec 380, and a pair of NAA Guardians--both the 32 and 380.

My primary carry weapon is a Glock 36.

What will be in my pocket will be the Rohrbaugh and the NAA Guardians.

wilco

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Re: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2004, 01:51:32 AM »
don't know where you live,but in the real world, tens of thousands of people pocket carry .38 snubs every day, and many x as many do so occasionally. The Kahr PM 9 is  a lot slimmer,  .3" shorter, and 3 ozs lighter than a steel, j frame .38 snub which has been a favorite pocket pc of many,for 40 years or so now.

Offline TexasBeard

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Re: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2004, 07:16:54 AM »
I have to recommend that NO ONE consider a Kahr polymer frame pistol.   The dirty little secret is they have several severe design flaws, all arising from their choice of polymer (TOO 'soft').

The magazine catch relies on a *tiny* piece of steel molded into it to hold the magazine in place.  

The polymer is too 'soft' (pliable) to retain that too-small steel insert.

WHEN the steel insert 'departs', the magazine catch will no longer hold the magazine in place.

Contrast that to a Glock, that uses a much 'harder' (more rigid polymer),  and their magazine catch does NOT rely on a too-small steel insert, but on a wider bearing surface of the harder polymer-polymer contact with the frame.

I had a Kahr that was the best shooting little pistol I've ever had... But there was no way to know WHEN that magazine catch was going to fail AGAIN, rendering the pistol a single-shot (at best).

Thanks,
TexasBeard
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Offline GeorgeH

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Re: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2004, 08:11:34 AM »
Hi Wilco:

Until I bought my Glock 36, my primary carry firearm was a S&W J frame.

My definition of a pocket gun is any firearm that I can conceal in the rear pocket of a pair of jeans.

When I go somewhere where prudence suggests that I be armed, I will usually carry my primary firearm on my belt with a NAA 380 Guardian in my rear pocket and either a Seecamp or NAA 32 Guardian in my front pocket.

The Rohrbaugh will most likely replace one of my pocket guns most of the time.

 


wilco

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Re: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2004, 10:27:30 AM »
Wont the STEEL mag catch of the regular Kahr's work in the PM models.If they dont, it's wonderful opportunity for someone to get RICH by contracting with an investment casting outfit, to make such a mag catch.

I moved the mag catch on my "chopped" Star BM (the Nova version, by smith Tim La France) to the butt, so that I could create a "sinus" at the bottom rear of the trigger guard, and thus, get all my fingers on the front strap of the gun.  A PPK type finger extention on the bottom front of the mag aids in this regard.

wilco

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Re: R-9 might be wonderful, but it aint a rifle
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2004, 10:30:48 AM »
The confrontation might be as far away as  7m, but a man can charge 7 yds, from a standing start, in 2 seconds, and under lethal stress, 2 seconds is a VERY fast reload, even if you have the spare mag in hand when the  timing starts. So a reload, except from behind cover, is not likely to help you.  With the heel clip type of mag catch, you can still manage such a reload in 3-4 seconds, twice as fast as one can realistically expect to speedload a revolver.  Furthermore, you can keep one roundchambered while you do it, with which to shoot anybody who tries to charge your position.