Author Topic: ''Limp-wristing'' ...... don't!!  (Read 4625 times)

Offline R9SCarry

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''Limp-wristing'' ...... don't!!
« on: May 23, 2004, 11:54:17 PM »
As might be expected from such a small gun, utilizing a 9mm round, and with relatively such low mass ........ grip is vital.

During my very first mag full, with Eric watching, I had an FTE.  It was entirely due to limp-wristing.

The mass of say - a full size 1911 - is well enough itself to require considerable energy input to overcome the intertia and allow for problems on cycling.

The R9 however needs restrained .. so as to permit full cycling .... let energy ''go to waste'' and you may get an FTE.

My grip is simply strong reinforcement from weak hand ... that is where limp wristing is prevented.  I have yet to try much single hand shooting, and will do so but that may require further technique refinement to avoid such problems.

It is something to aware of - that's all ..... and is surmountable once you get to practice.
Chris - R9S
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Offline Datan

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Re: ''Limp-wristing'' ...... don't!!
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2004, 02:56:18 PM »
How successful has everyone been in overcoming limp-wristing with the R9?  I find that with my best effort, I still am not able to get 100% extractions and feeds.  Can folks share the number of FTEs and feed failures when you started shooting this gun, and then what you did to correct this (grip, etc..), and finally current number of FTEs and feed failures, if any.  Thanks!

Offline 9mil.mouse

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Re: ''Limp-wristing'' ...... don't!!
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2004, 03:46:06 PM »
Hi Datan,

First let me say that your description of the Rohrbaugh trigger pull is superb, it's exactly what I feel when I squeeze the trigger, and I couldn't have put it into words as well as you did.

Now, about limp-writsting. So far, I haven't had a problem with this, and I haven't had any misfeeds or extraction failures. That's in 7 boxes (350 rounds) of standard pressure ammo.

I hold very small pistols (like the Rohrbaugh) with a different amount of hand pressure than pistols with larger grips. I hold them *very* firmly indeed, normally with both hands, and I grip them just short of shaking from the effort. For me, this seems to be needed to keep them from rotating when they fire and changing their position in my hand. It also helps me come back on target without having to re-adjust my grip.

I also have a mental picture of holding fast and resisting the recoil of the piece, while "willing" the bullet forward into the target. I try to welcome, but at the same time strongly resist the push backwards when it fires.

With the Rohrbaugh you do have a very good idea of exactly when the round is going to go off. You squeeze through that long, ultra-smooth stroke, then feel a bit more resistance and know that it's going to fire with just a hair more pressure on the trigger.

I think that not having the break come as a complete surprise encourages anticipation and surrendering to the recoil when it fires. Holding the piece very firmly, and mentally pushing that bullet foreward seems to do the trick for me.

"Can folks share the number of FTEs and feed failures when you started shooting this gun, and then what you did to correct this (grip, etc..), ..."

Offline R9SCarry

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Re: ''Limp-wristing'' ...... don't!!
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2004, 10:52:07 PM »
Datan .. welcome here! :)

I may have said elsewhere .. my only real limp-wristing FTE was in my first five rounds .. with Eric watching!  He soon put me right!

Since then .. have used a very firm grip .. the use of weak hand is crucial I think altho - it is shootable strong hand only if you get the right grip .... simply a matter of practice really.  Could well be a good gun for ladies as long as they handle the recoil ....... cos IMO the larger your hand the harder it can be to get the grip right.
Chris - R9S
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Offline Datan

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Re: ''Limp-wristing'' ...... don't!!
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2004, 12:55:22 AM »
THX 9mil.mouse! - you really put it in perspective for me with the strength of grip - your words really painted a picture for me.  I actually do well for the first few mags and then I start to have some issues.  I will try to visualize as you do.. I think that will help.. I already feel like I have a death grip on the thing but probably let up as I continue to shoot.  As Chris says, weak hand support is probably critical - I think I can improve there as well.

Offline 9mil.mouse

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Re: ''Limp-wristing'' ...... don't!!
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2004, 04:48:59 PM »
Datan,

Very pleased if anything I said is useful to you or anyone else.
About 30 rounds is my upper limit with the Rohrbaugh, after that I need a rest. I guess there are others here who are able to fire more rounds from it at one time without having their shooting decline in performance. But I'm satisfued, thirty rounds is way more than I expect to ever use from the Rohrbaugh except at the range!

Anyway, after I finished writing my message I thought of something else I do, only with small light pistols, so I'll mention it now. We all know there's going to be some recoil when we fire a little pistol. I approach the recoil like there's someone on the other side of a door that opens toward me, and I know they are coming and are going to try to push their way through that door. I am holding my hands against the door and am not going to let them get through. They are going to impact the door over and over (with each shot,)  and I am going to resist their push, successfully, each time. I only seem to need to think like this with very light small pistols. Anyway, it works for me and I thought I'd mention it.  
Regards,  9mil.mouse

Offline Texas_Bob

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Re: ''Limp-wristing'' ...... don't!!
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2004, 10:30:29 PM »
 My pistol has been thru 200 rds 115gr PMC ball ammo with 18 shooters counting myself. Only "one"person had a FTF when he almost lost hold of the pistol. I have been thru another 40rds Federal 115gr 9BP with no malfunctions. I shoot weekly(about 48 out of 52), and I use my R9S as a BUG. So my practice is two six rd mags fired weak hand only, one target at 3yd and the other at 5yd. I have no problems shooting weak hand only, maybe years of shooting P7's have paid off, I automatically "lock" my wrist and "squeese" the frontstrap of any pistol. My doctor recomended (for me) years ago to use those squeese hand exersissors while sitting around watching TV, arthititis of the hands runs in my family. Works for me, as I said, my R9S will be employed weak hand only unless I'm wearing nothing but jeans and a T-shirt, then it rides in a Hedley pocket holster and I do better with my strong hand anyway. Oh, btw, last monday nights 3yd target, six rds rapid fire could be covered with a playing card. The 5yd target, rapid fire, could be covered with a coffee cup saucer. My range buddies are "green" with E.

Offline doctordun

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Re: ''Limp-wristing'' ...... don't!!
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2004, 10:53:46 PM »
Just got mine yesterday and can't wait till Saturday to try it out. As far as limpwristing goes, I've been carrying and shooting a Scandium J-frame 357mag. It has the toughest recoil of any handgun I own, but controllable. I hold it very tight and it doesn't hurt. My friends won't shoot it out of fear. Someone on one of the forums said the R-9 felt like the Keltec32, which I enjoy shooting. 30 years ago, I wouldn't even shoot a 45 out of recoil fear. Now I realize it's a tradeoff between weight and recoil. I'll take the weight anytime.

Offline R9SCarry

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Re: ''Limp-wristing'' ...... don't!!
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2004, 11:22:41 PM »
Doctor .. welcome here :) ...... I think I'd slightly modify the comparison and say that the R9 is not dissimilar from a P3-AT (.380) ...... to me the .32 is definitely less strong on recoil.

Having said that .... it takes a good many shots thru R9 for my hand to start to suffer and ...... next time I shoot it a lot, will wear my biking/shotgunning gloves (fingerless things) .. just to ease the stresses.

BTW .. you can keep that Scandium !!!!! (And I say that despite being a hand-cannon enthusiast!)
Chris - R9S
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Offline doctordun

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Re: ''Limp-wristing'' ...... don't!!
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2004, 04:25:12 PM »
Just came back from the range. Put 10 mags thru my new R-9.  Got 6 failures to extract with 4 different brands of ammo. The unusual part of this is that the failures occured always in at the same place. What I mean is, I would chamber the first round and leave five in the mag. Upon firing, the chambered round would only extract about 1/3 the distance, the slide would be almost to full rearward position and the next round in the mag would be pushing up on the partially extracted brass. This is not fun to correct...I need an extra hand to push down on the top round, hold the slide back and remove the expended brass. Is this limp wristing or something else? Could the magazine spring be too tight and hold the first round from extracting? I did not experience any  failures of any kind when using the mags with 4 rounds left instead of 5.

Just a note. I also fired my J-Frame Scandium with about the same count and the recoil with plain jane 38 ammo is not unlike the Rohrbaugh with 9mil. When stepping up to the 357mag, there "is" a difference.

I was also hitting high left with the R-9. Limpwristing, trigger tecnique, or shooter?

Offline DDGator

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Re: ''Limp-wristing'' ...... don't!!
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2004, 04:31:02 PM »
Failures to extract are classic limpwristing symptoms -- were you consciously thinking about keeping your wrist locked?

Hitting high and left is not a limpwrist issue.  Bad trigger control generally moves the POI down, not up.  Not sure about up and left.  How far and at what distance?

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Offline 9mil.mouse

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Re: ''Limp-wristing'' ...... don't!!
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2004, 07:25:46 PM »
Hi doctordun!

I'm a big fan of J-frames myself, although none of mine are beauties like RJ owns, mine are just "shooters". When I shoot
J-frames I worry a little bit less about grip and resisting the recoil than with the R-9 because of course, the J-frames will always fire the next round regardless of how firmly I held it for the previous round.

I should mention that I load my R9s slightly differently from the way you describe. I load the mag fully, work the slide chambering a round, then remove the magazine, put down the pistol, add one more round to the magazine, then  pick the pistol up, put the magazine in and fire at the target.

What I'm thinking is, if your magazine springs are identical to mine, (no telling if they are,) and there is a problem with the spring being too stiff, the way I do things should exaggerate the problem you've experienced with the first shot failing to eject, but I'm not experiencing this.  

Did you happen to notice if this failure to extract is happening with BOTH magazines?

Offline doctordun

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Re: ''Limp-wristing'' ...... don't!!
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2004, 07:40:32 PM »
Yes, it did it with both magazines and I was very conscious of limp wristing. I held very firm, especially after the first FTE. How does limp wristing cause the  extractor to release the brass before full extraction? My first thought was the 5th cartridge was some how causing this, but then again, I've been wrong before and certainly not an expert on this subject. I just love guns and shooting.

As to where I was hitting. At about 20 feet, I was hiitting at 10 to 11 o'clock about 4 inches from center. I may have been trying too hard. I shot my Keltec 11 and  hit center area as with my 340sc.

Thanks for the advise.

Offline R9SCarry

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Re: ''Limp-wristing'' ...... don't!!
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2004, 09:35:53 PM »
Quote
[size=13]How does limp wristing cause the  extractor to release the brass before full extraction?[/size]

Doctor ..... let me explain this as I see it.  Think first of a 38 ounce 1911 ... plenty of mass.  On firing, that mass resists the intertial response of recoil, sufficient to behave as if not really held at all.  The time taken to accelerate said mass to an appreciable level is longer than it takes for the slide to travel back.

OTOH .. the low mass of the R9 means that if limp wristed, then it has insufficient mass - in and of itself - to resist that acceleration rearward and so energy is dissipated.  Energy which should go into the action of the slide moving back.

With a solid grip .. we compensate for that low mass and give the support required .. such that energy does indeed cycle that slide back ... and quickly.  The speed of slide travel must be maximized ... if too slow because of energy loss thru limp wristing, then the extractor claw can lose its ''grip'' too early (IMO).  It probably only holds real tight at beginning of extraction and so an inertial acceleration imparted to the case under normal conditions allows the ''hold'' to be long enough.

The extraction is if you like (must be) ''brisk'' and once successfully initiated at speed will succeed.  Slow and dampen that ... decrease inertail effects ... and that ''hold'' just may not last long enough.  Plus .. the case needs to also strike the ejector very fast and briskly too ... in order to clear out of the way before slide moves forward again.

I ramble . sorry - always do - thinkin out loud.  Hopefully tho this sorta covers it!
Chris - R9S
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Offline DDGator

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Re: ''Limp-wristing'' ...... don't!!
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2004, 11:08:20 PM »
I agree with R9SCarry -- essentially by letting the gun move with the inertia of the slide, you are lessening the speed of the slide and preventing a full speed/full force extraction.  I can make by P-3AT do this by intentionally shoot with a limp wrist.

That may or may not be what YOU are doing -- but that is the theory behind limpwristing as I understand it.

If you are shooting uniformly high and right, its probably not a trigger issue.  It may be your gun or the way you see the sights -- I wouldnt worry too much about 4 inches at 20 feet.

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