Pitfalls of Pocket Guns (or R9 in Pocket = Loser)

[gr8guns]

From "R9 May Be Wonderful, But It Ain't a Rifle"
(http://www.rohrbaughforum.com/YaBB.cgi?board=Other;action=display;num=1085086413;start=15 Closed Thread.)

I learned two important things:
a) A man can run/lunge 20 feet in 2 seconds.
b) FBI says 90% of assults begin within 10 ft.

That makes me think that you will never draw your pocket gun in time unless you already have your hand on the gun.

Maybe we need some other level of defense that responds either faster or that we can deploy and use after the assult started.

Ok, the title was intended to provoke thought and attract comments. Any comments?

[glazier]

Awareness is paramount!  Avoidance of a potentially lethal situation is a good thing.  An R9 in my pocket is waaay better than a swift kick in the arse.  Of course pocket carry isn't ideal .....  

[Aglifter]

2 comments:
    If you're in a situation that you're likely to be attacked, would you let someone within 20 ft?  Feel free to cross a street/take a different route -- I'm all for the "stand your ground" doctrine once your attacked, but I don't want to get involved in a situation

    The nice thing about a pocket gun it that I, I do have very big hand, can hold the R9 in a ready position, with my finger off the trigger, in my pocket.  Frankly, if a man's running at me at full speed, I think I'd be better off just avoiding them -- may sound odd, but fencing taught me that it's pretty hard for someone running to change direction.

[Newt]

Its very natural for someone to have their hand in their front pocket, so I would suggest to you that in a situation where one was aware of a posible threat hand in pocket on gun would put you at the ready without presenting the gun until absolutly needed. A draw from this position is very quick with proper holster.

[Skyhook]

Street survival is a lot like flying; sometimes it's all about 'see and avoid'.

My pocket gun is there if, for some reason unforseen, a really BG gets into the red zone and I am left w/o options.

One R9 is worth a lot of elbows and knees. Best deal is to avoid that kind of thing entirely.

[R9SCarry]

The one major criterion I have to satisfy with pocket carry is - type of pocket.  Jeans type pocket - no good.  I have to have a large patch type pocket or at least one with space to spare - meaning more or less - enough space for gun in hand - and still an easy way out.

Better yet as always - avoidance of ''situations''

[BlueGrips]

Interesting subject. I'm still practicing how to draw my pocket holstered R9 from the tight Levis pocket. Need a lot more practice!

Having a defensive gun doesn't make you foolproof. Many police officers died with their guns still holstered from being attacked by knife-wielding assailants charging within the 20' distance. It was proven many times that within this distance any attempts to retrieve the gun will be in vain. The decision to draw, time to aim and fire must be made between 1.5 to 3 seconds in which the assailant operates undisturbed. This is considered a close-range defense scenerio.

The Solution? Neutralize the assailant by using the hand and foot defense (block), AND immediately you MUST counter attack to stop him cold (punch/kick in vital areas), THEN you'll have the options in continuing to disarm him, flee, or create a greater distance to draw your gun (or in our case, the little R9/s!)

In short, a total warrior cannot always rely solely on his weapon(s). Self-defense and hand-to-hand combat skills help.

It's an ugly world out there...be safe and always be ready!

Cheers!

[Skyhook]

Another thing I always try to remember when in a possible threat area is that any perp who is bent upon attacking someone Alreadyknows about the attack and the details... the victim, therefore is always at a big disadvantage from the get-go.

Victims are always coming from behind the curve...

[theirishguard]

One must be aware of what is going on around you at all times. Then one has to prepare your mind to go from a white frame of mind"everthing is wonderful", to yellow "what is that over there", to orange "lets watch these guys", to red "lets get ready to draw and shoot mind set". One hand in the front pocket is just a every day kind of thing and will not alarm anyone. Then practice the draw and pull the trigger with an empty gun until it is done smooth and the gun points good or sights line up. Speed is not important at first. When one does this kind of practice be aware of the back stop of course.  Tom

[Texas_Bob]

 After thirty years of ccw I've learned a "few things." "Situalizion awareness," read that as "living in condition yellow" will do more for you than anything else. Without "ready access" to a gun, if involved in a "gunfight", YOU LOSE. Street predators fall into two types. The first is the homeless/junkie person that will not be reasoned with, and "only" an explosive counter-strike of any type will win the day. Any firearm is useless unless you engage your brain and "have a plan" for returning home safely. The other "Predator" is the "true pro." They will "know" if you are "armed" and "if you look like food, you will be eaten." If you look like you are the type of target that's "not worth the trouble," most likely you'll be left alone. Then there are the "thankfully few" situations like Luby's, McDonalds, and outside daycare centers, "What's in your pocket?"

[gr8guns]

Mozambique Drill - One professional competitor performed the Mozambique Drill (draw, fire 2 shots to the chest and 1 shot to the head) in 1.48 seconds from an alert start.

Tueller Drill - Firearms instructor Tueller ran tests with a class of his  handgun students.  Initiate a physical attack from 21 feet, which is a "typical" gun fight distance in handgun schools.  The  assailants reached the victims in an average of 1.5 seconds.  The Tueller Drill, as it became known, is to place sufficient distance or obstacles between yourself and the assailant so that you can draw and fire before the assailant can reach you to grapple with you or knife you. Otherwise, you must use some other defense technique to ward off the assailant and allow yourself time to draw and fire.  During the Tueller Drill, this other technique frequently meant that the victim had to overcome the assailant using unarmed techniques anyway.

[Skyhook]

gr8guns' post, above, also reminded me of another factor; since handgun rounds are essentially 'bleed-out' weapons, the victim should not stop shooting after firing one round.

Double-tap x2, will probably level the field, but unless one round is placed into the wheelhouse, the fight will most likely continue past the first , or even second, shot.

[musician]

Every contributor to this thread makes good points.  The also illustrate why it's a good idea to also carry a knife.  Bud Nealy (budnealyknifemaker.com) is world-famous for his very slim, very flat, very sharp, very pointy self defense knives.  He accompanies his wares with a multi-carry sheath system of kydex which allows carry in a variety of places on the body.  I'm not trying to sell Nealy knives; I just love 'em (I have six).  they go everywhere and can be placed on your body so that they can be made to appear in a flash almost out of nowhere.  If you practice your knife draw with your off hand, you can defend yourself while you're drawing your R9.

[FireBreather01]

Hmmmmm.....Never bring a gun to a knife fight?

Some interesting comments here that pretty much boil down to a few things -
Action beats reaction - a BG bent on destruction definitely has the advantage - his actions, based on surprise and at least some planning, leaves his intended victim(s) little time to react. Therefore you must use the entirety of your training and surroundings to throw off this advantage - verbal shock - yell as loudly and forcibly as possible to make him hesitate, even a second, before the brunt of the attack begins. Use cover, any cover, to throw off his timing - throw something at him, anything you may be already carrying -a soft drink can, keys, a coat, etc. Move laterally away from the attack, put something between him and you - a garbage can, move around a car, light post, anything to keep him away. Of course this leads to -

Situational awareness - who is near me? what is he up to? where can I run/hide? what can I use to throw at him? Should I be indexing my weapon? Do I stare him down? What are my advantages here and now?

Attitude - I'm going to WIN this looming battle - NO MATTER WHAT!!! I have been trained and educated on how to defend myself - I won't give in and I won't give up - I will shoot until this threat is eliminated.

Finally, no matter if it is a pocketed gun or holstered gun each has drawbacks as compared to a gun in hand - which just isn't possible or reasonable, so the reality is if someone is bent on killing another person, and there are no premonitory indications, it is nearly impossible to stop that incident. For the rest of the time, we remain in condition yellow, we're aware and observant, and we're ready - if we walk into a hold-up or an assault, or any potentially violent encounter, or hear shots, or a scream for help, we wil use our brain, our training, and courage to defend as needed.

[R9SCarry]

FB - good post Sir ... good post!