Author Topic: I'm seeing frame wear - any comments?  (Read 23478 times)

Offline Skyhook

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Re: I'm seeing frame wear - any comments?
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2005, 06:16:16 PM »
Has anyone received official commentary on this frame wear from the factory personnel?

It seems like that amount of abrasion is worthy of some consternation and comment from 'above'.

Has anyone gotten word from Eric on this?

Offline ketap

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Re: I'm seeing frame wear - any comments?
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2005, 07:48:24 PM »
shyhook, I agree, to me this is a serious issue.

Offline R9SCarry

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Re: I'm seeing frame wear - any comments?
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2005, 08:17:23 PM »
I have had contact with Eric but - he would ask that folks wait for an analysis to be made which should be soon.  No point in going off at half cock.

I have theorized a bit so far but that's all it is - and when there is definitive info for release it will be quoted as direct from Eric and/or Karl.  I or one of us will post the full skinny when received but not until then.

Patience folks. :)
Chris - R9S
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Offline ketap

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Re: I'm seeing frame wear - any comments?
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2005, 08:41:48 PM »
Thank you rs9carry

Offline TW

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I'm seeing frame wear - any comments?
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2005, 04:34:40 AM »
>>Chris...

I have a question for you...again going back to that second pic of yours - where I pointed out the metal shavings collected in that cup-like structure in the bottom of the frame.  Are we tracking now?  OK...my question is this - what is the purpose/function of that shallow "cup" in the frame - right in front of mag well...??  I think I know but I would like to hear it from you, or anyone for that matter.

The reason I ask about that cup has to do with what I saw last night when I cleaned and lubed both my R9s.  It appeared in my older gun that there was a lot of wear along the wall of the cup nearest mag well...the top of the wall at that point being worn down and rounded.  From looking at your pictures it looks like your gun may be in the early stages of doing this - do you know what I am talking about?  I compared this to the same area on my newer gun...and I could see a clean straight wall on that one, although it almost looks like the wall on that side was stepped to begin with.  There is just the beginnings of wear starting that area on the newer gun.  I regret I was not in a position to photograph what I am seeing - was late and I wanted to get to bed.  

Thoughts, please...?...TW<<  

Offline sslater

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Re: I'm seeing frame wear - any comments?
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2005, 11:15:04 AM »
I've been following this thread as my R9s is due in any day now.  The only other alloy frame gun I own is a Sig P239 in .40 S&W.  After 1,000 rounds the frame looks like this:

There is evidence of "polishing" thru the anodize coating, but no flaking or other pickup on the front of the rails @ dust cover, or back at the receiver end.  (The steel hammer shows more polishing than the aluminum frame.)  
I've used only EEZOX on this gun since day one, but have recently switched to Brian Enos's Slide Glide for those rubbing surfaces.
BTW: The Sig has been 100% reliable for me.  Just a little too big for pocket carry and I find concealed carry holsters too uncomfortable in warm weather.

Offline R9SCarry

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Re: I'm seeing frame wear - any comments?
« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2005, 03:00:00 PM »
TW - I am in and out a lot today but will strip both guns again later on and get Mk I eyeball into play and report back for you, plus some deliberation! :)
Chris - R9S
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Offline TW

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I'm seeing frame wear - any comments?
« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2005, 09:32:14 PM »
Quote
TW - I am in and out a lot today but will strip both guns again later on and get Mk I eyeball into play and report back for you, plus some deliberation! :)

>>Deliberations...?  That mean I've been bad and you are going to set me straight...??  Should I start groveling now...??...**TW scratches head**...

Offline R9SCarry

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Re: I'm seeing frame wear - any comments?
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2005, 09:54:01 PM »
Haha - TW you just beat me too it - am gonna try and ''splain'' all this!  Grovel all you like BTW - love it!! ;D

 OK this may take a few minutes to write up so - watch this space, back soon ......................  :P :P
Chris - R9S
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Offline R9SCarry

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Re: I'm seeing frame wear - any comments?
« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2005, 10:13:28 PM »
TW - given time and some of that on CAD (:) )I could show some aspects graphically.  But for now I will attempt (operative word) to do this thru description.

That ''cup'' in the frame is actually receiving the barrel lug base protrusion at fully unlocked - at which point it actually could prevent feed ramp from being any further back than level, with the mag' well.  It is tho not designed to take that much of a whack!

Coincident with that at unlock is the actual and theoretically main limiting factor - the pin, in the lug slot.  That should prevent the barrel setting back any more on it's own so - the ''cup'' is actually a clearance device shall we say.

Now, also at unlock the barreland lug is at its lowest point, having dropped, thus the contact with the wear areas we have seen by the exterior of chamber profile.  I say contact - in fact from a design POV I expect with the incredibly tight tolerances in this gun, we have a theoretical ''barest kiss''.  

However, if we consider the extreme violence of the event (firing) during a full cycle - it seems very likely to me that a two or three thou over travel downwards, and maybe a thou or so to rear (heck, this is a demanding gun to design!) - and we can see the slight attrition to the surfaces and thus a very small flake or two of displaced aluminum.

I still feel this is self limiting and I guess if tolerances were sloppy as heck, it might not even happen.  Now remember folks - this is me theorizing and not Eric taking.  That will come later when we have full answers!!

Looking at the whole cycle and so recapping a bit (heck - wish I could animate a Flash file like the one on a 1911) ..... I can ''see'' it clearly but description in words is a bugger!

At instant of slide beginning rearward travel as round fires and pressures begin to back off from peak, we have the barrel moving rearward by approx 1/4", as recoil assembly is being compressed by slide - (exerting as it does said rearward bias against barrel lug) - at which point the lug slot allows it to drop, and there it stays while slide goes all ways to rear.

Slide progresses then forward, stripping a new round - which is fed into the lowered barrel and chambered, assisted by the feed ramp.  The completion of the auto load is aquisition of full battery and as slide moves further forward, and recoil assembly is (relatively) relaxing, we see the bolt face area impinge on the round's base to complete the action.  The last 1/4" or so as round goes into battery and slide closes, is when the lug slot then rides the pin to lift chamber area (barrel rear if you like) once more and go into full lock-up.

Phew - if you understood any of that it's a miracle.  How useful an animation would be!!  Just don't have the time.

See if this fits in TW with any thoughts you or others may have had.  I am as ever verbose and rambling - but this is not that easy to describe so as to make it foolproof to understand!

 ;D
Chris - R9S
Guns don't kill people - people kill people.
R9 FAQ Site
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Offline MountainMan

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Re: I'm seeing frame wear - any comments?
« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2005, 12:42:37 AM »
Wow Dr. Chris - very complete answer. I know I learned more than I thought I would before I started the read. Reminds me of my graduate school economics classes when I had to read the stuff several times to understand it.  

Now if we had the animation .......
"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but the moments that take our breath away..."


Offline R9SCarry

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Re: I'm seeing frame wear - any comments?
« Reply #41 on: July 10, 2005, 01:08:24 AM »
Dave - I am seriously keen to try and do an animation but - it is a deceptive amount of work.  I would not be surprised to spend a full week on such a project - to make it halfways adequate.

Maybe - sometime! :P
Chris - R9S
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R9 FAQ Site
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Offline TW

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I'm seeing frame wear - any comments?
« Reply #42 on: July 10, 2005, 02:35:58 AM »
**Tears swell in TW's eyes...lips quiver**

Offline RJ HEDLEY

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Re: I'm seeing frame wear - any comments?
« Reply #43 on: July 10, 2005, 11:41:10 AM »
Boy howdy,  that was good.  Reminds me of trying to  'plain something  to my Wife... ;)
RJ=


 
 

Offline R9SCarry

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Re: I'm seeing frame wear - any comments?
« Reply #44 on: July 10, 2005, 11:57:44 AM »
Quote
[size=13]Reminds me of trying to  'plain something  to my Wife...  ;)[/size]

But RJ - that's different, n'est pas??  That'd be trying to ''talk yourself outa trouble'' ?  :D ;D ;D
Chris - R9S
Guns don't kill people - people kill people.
R9 FAQ Site
NRA Life member and Certified Instructor.