Author Topic: Long time lurker with several ?'s  (Read 12546 times)

Offline BytorJr

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Long time lurker with several ?'s
« on: September 06, 2007, 03:02:22 AM »
I've been thinking about getting an R9 (stealth for me) for quite some time now.  However, having had my share of problems with my Seecamp to which I will say Larry Seecamp stands by his product 100% and has fixed every time - so please don't get the wrong opinion of Mr. Seecamp.   As a result though, I'm a little scared of reliability of small frame guns.  First off I'm not here to have a reliability flame war, just to ask a few "relatively" intelligent (in the eye of the beholder) questions.

1)  The recoil spring:  100 rounds seems like a VERY short lifespan.   I don't want to go broke practicing; I'd rather spend money on ammo. For example, suppose I want to go take a tactical training class for concealed carry, would I have to change every 100 rounds?  I understand the 100 round rule for "true" carry when your life is on the line (or could be), but is there damage that would occur to the slide/frame if this rule was "violated" to say 300 rounds for a training session like TJ Pilling has at Tiger Valley in Waco, TX  which focuses on drawing and shooting from concealment (not from a holster on your side all with your shirt all nice and tucked in)?   Also would I have to shot Gold Dot's or would WWB or Aguila work well enough for this purpose?

I'm aware that some of you have the belief that shoot the pup one a little since it's not a target gun.  I'm of the opposite opinion.  I believe one needs to shoot A LOT, especially in the first months you own the gun.  Then, taper off to say 50-100 rounds per month.  (I certainly can't do that with my J-frame or I wouldn't have a thumb and palm heal, but I get close). Remember, if this is your primary carry gun, which IMO you have to be at your ultimate peak of shooting ability, to which 25 rounds a month or every other month isn't going to cut it.   Am I talking of blasting 300-400 rounds per month out of it, absolutely not...besides, even 9mm has gotten silly in $$$...but I would think 50-100 should be in the realm of reality.

2)  How often does the mag spring need replacing?

3) Are the feed issues the recoil spring or lubrication?  Does Eezox work well or is thicker say Amsoil spray grease needed on the slide rails?

4) My definition of "reliable" is that if it cannot feed 50 rounds without cleaning, it's just not reliable enough for my life to be bet on it.  Also, I don't believe it should have to cool down for 30 minutes every say 14 shots in order to be reliable for shots 15-21.  No, I hopefully won't every fire off that many to save my life, but it's a bench mark I use for smaller frame guns.  In particular, it may help imitate the amount of dirt and dust that just naturally get into a pocket pistol.   My HK can go over 1000 rounds in 3 hours of continuous fire (with only reloading as a break in the action) and still function flawlessly, but I don't expect the R9 to, so I'm not going to harp on this issue - different tool, so I don't expect THAT kind of reliability.

5) As much as I like my J-frame which is still the ultimate pocket gun IMO, I want more capacity (even if it's just 2) but with the more important factor of having faster follow ups that are almost impossible with the J-frame without constant practice on steel targets placed roughly 10 feet apart.
SWAT magazine had a fairly good article on this in this issue.

6) Does the magazine release pop out a lot?  My Seecamp consistently works out and the mag just falls out, unlike say the HK P7M8 which has a "backwards" design for a heal release?   How fast are the mag reloads? Certainly not as quick as an HK or even a Browning style, but how much time is lost because of the heal release?

And once again, please do not take this as a bashing of Larry Seecamp with my mag problem, I just seem to have had a few problems which Larry has always been gracious enough to fix - which should speak volumes about Larry's integrity.  I'm sure the Brothers R are just as outstanding, and from my meeting with them, I believe Karl, at SHOT 2007 I can pretty much confirm this.


Well, that should be a good start for my questions.  Thanks, and thanks for allowing me to lurk for a few years.

Thoughts and suggestions are welcome, but please, no flames.  
« Last Edit: September 06, 2007, 03:13:25 AM by BytorJr »

Offline Brenden

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Re: Long time lurker with several ?'s
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2007, 05:20:59 PM »
Welcome to the forum..

I can not type well enough to answer all of your questions/concerns.. ;)

I have not had any problems with any of my pups,and I am using the "old" springs-both mag and recoil..

IMO-the Seecamp, or the R9 is not a "target" gun..

You may be setting yourself up for a dissappointment from the very start-IMO..

The pup is a tight tolerance gun,being "heated" sometimes affects this-I have not shot over 8-10 mags worth at a sitting,and that was with a cool down in between 2-3 mags..

I look at it this way,1 mag is all I care about with this gun,or a Seecamp,as reloading is not a quick thing-even though I carry a spare..

I carry a Glock IWB when applicable,which I will use first if needed-But I will not feel "undergunned" if the pup is to be used.. 8)

The R Bros will back up the pup,just as Larry apparently has on your Seecamp issues..

I am in the camp of shoot a little,carry a lot..

Wish you well in your search-and glad to have you here!!

Brenden
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Offline riffraff

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Re: Long time lurker with several ?'s
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2007, 06:54:53 PM »
BytorJr,

Ditto Brendon.

In the whole lifetime of an R9 you should shoot maybe 3 to 4 hundred rounds through it total.  If you think you are going to shoot this gun like you would shoot a Browning Hi-Power, you are setting yourself up for disapointment.  If you shoot several hundred rounds through it something is likely to break.  As has been said before, this is not a gun that one plinks with.

I have not 'wrung out' the new recoil springs yet but I would still bet that a 100rd replacement will be the best.  A recoil spring costs maybe 7 bucks or so?  What does 100rds of premium self defense ammo cost?

The gen2 mag springs are quite a bit stouter than the gen1's and many R9's function fine with the gen1 mag springs so I don't think you will have to replace mag springs EVER.

I will admit that I did not read your entire post.  If you are a long time lurker then you should know the answere to a lot of your questions already.

Mike
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Offline BytorJr

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Re: Long time lurker with several ?'s
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2007, 09:49:48 PM »
Well, thanks for the comments folks.  However, DVC hit the nail on the head with a sledgehammer.  If I cannot shoot at least 50-100 per month (which IMO is a minimum for true competency), then this is definitely not the gun for me and I shall keep my J-frame.   No offense towards anybody, that's just my opinion and the opinion of most tactical schools.    Granted, if ammo goes up, that number is going to have to go down just due to sheer pricing, but as it stands, that's "my number."

Also, to only shoot 400 rounds from a pistol, over the life of the gun is setting yourself up for total disaster in the case of emergency and testing purposes.  A handgun should be just that...and extension of your hand, both in terms of "pointability" and especially in muscle memory.  Each gun is different.  That's in particular why I'm looking at the R9 instead of my J-frame.  At least the R9 is SIMILAR to an HK or Glock, etc.   Not to mention the recoil is less than a 340PD.   I also heard the 340PD won't hold up well.  Well, mine's got probably 2000 rounds (though only a few hundred 357's) and it's doing fine.  Some wear from the 357's, but that's when I decided 38+P would be better especially in light of faster follow ups.

Reloads are also important.  NEVER think you won't have to reload!!! Maybe you have to do a tactical or a combat reload say to get to your car, back to the house, or somewhere else to get the big bad boy defense weapon out, but these should reloads be drillled into you - yet again another failure of the J-frame....try to load one of those fast!! :).  

As for the mag spring, I have no problem with the 100 round "limit."  But if you've ever taken a tactical training class, or any basic handgun class for that matter, the round count goes up faster than you can imagine.  It'd be very hard to change every 100 rounds when you're given time to reload mags while the other group shoots, then you're up.  Also, it's a strict no-no, and will get you expelled from all the schools I've been to if you decide to "break down" your gun right there.  You shoot, guns in holster, reload all mags that have been expelled, then shoot again.  To change springs, more than likely you'd be sent off to the "smith's" area or have one of the assistants with you, losing valuable training time and possibly even shutting the range down for everybody else while you do your spring change.  That's unacceptable if one plans on this form of training to get proficient.  Besides, the occasional malfunction is VERY good practice and one I'd be willing to live with during training...just not in "real" life.

As for a target gun...I would be shooting a 22, not a 32, 38, 357, 9mm (Kurz or Luger), 45, etc.  I practice for one thing....self defense.  This WILL not be...repeat WILL NOT be a target gun.  Sure, it'll shoot paper (preferably steel) targets, but I'm not going out to have a really nice Hamden series High Standard here to blast holes at 50 yards.

Also, I think I mentioned a cool down period after 3 or 4 mags.  (4 tops).  But it should be able to handle 3, period.  If it can't, then it's not for me.  Tight tolerance is fine, bu too tight is a liability.  Just look at how well an AK functions....not what I'd call a GREAT looking gun, but one of the best of all times without a doubt...and it has well..does it even have tolerance? :) :).

I'm glad some of you guys are happy with your pups, but other than what DVC said, unless somebody else chimes in, I'll stick with the J-frame and not look back....for now that is.

Thanks for allowing me to pester you guys and for your input.  I know this board has some guys with good views on a variety of topics, so that's why I came here.  If the information I'm getting isn't satisfactory for me, then simply put you've saved me money; but you've at least told it to me and not led me down some path.  Again, thanks!!!!

So, in a nutshell, since I tend to write long posts...would the R9 be able to handle say 500 to 700 rounds per year?
« Last Edit: September 06, 2007, 10:18:55 PM by BytorJr »

Offline CaptBW

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Re: Long time lurker with several ?'s
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2007, 12:37:01 AM »
In a nutshell:  easily.
ACTA NON VERBA




Offline Brenden

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Re: Long time lurker with several ?'s
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2007, 01:35:40 AM »
I would not have a problem shooting 100 rounds a month,there is nothing with the construction of the gun that would not allow this to my knowledge!!

I personally choose not to..That is my choice..

I broke my pups in till I felt that they were reliable,what I felt was reliable.....
Now I shoot 3-4 mags every month or so and keep the pup clean..

I have not been to any "Name" training classes,not that I would not have liked to do so,but now that is past..So I can not speak on that..

Do not worry about changing springs out at # 100,you shoot it enough,it will tell you when it's needed.. ;)

I have done enough "testing" with the pup in my pocket,that I feed it what it likes-115 grain GDHP,WWB,STHPs,all seem to be good to go in mine.. :)

DVC-Welcome to the forum..
The problem is that many people choose to treat the pup as a "target gun" and choose any off the shelf ammo to do so..

The Seecamp has recommended ammo choices,the pup also has it's faves..

Glad to have you all on the forum!! 8)

Brenden

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Offline pbwe

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Re: Long time lurker with several ?'s
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2007, 10:01:25 AM »
I challenge the notion of "shoot a little".  To be effective with an arm, especially in the implied unscripted and fast changing self defence context, the user needs to be very proficient and familiar with it.  And not just as standing two hand with stationary targets.   The R9 is a unique arm, with unique performance and handling traits, and practice with a larger gun would not anticipate these.  There seems no substutute for frequent practice, and the notion that the Rohrbaugh may not be used in this manner seems disingenuous given the implied pedigree.

Offline harrydog

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Re: Long time lurker with several ?'s
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2007, 10:59:39 AM »
I know that the Rohrbaugh brothers have said in the past that this gun is meant to be carried a lot and shot a little, or something to that effect. I'm not sure if the reason behind this is that the gun won't hold up to thousands of rounds or if it's because the snappy recoil would make it unpleasant to shoot that much.
I don't think anyone has really "pushed the envelope" to see how many rounds the R9 will go. I believe one of the very early pistols that the brothers have has gone about 5,000 rounds, but that's the most I've heard of.
There are many people here who have very, very few rounds through their guns and are content to keep it that way.  But I personally would like to be able to shoot up to 100 rounds per month with this gun and still have it last indefinitely. But if I were to shoot it that much, in only 5 years the gun would have more rounds through it than any known R9 to date, so I'd be in uncharted waters. Maybe it wouldn't be a problem but maybe it would. An aluminum frame in a 9mm this small really takes a pounding and may not hold up.
This is all the more reason for Rohrbaugh to produce an all stainless steel version of the gun which could be used for practice and would hold up better than the aluminum framed version over the long haul. It would give many, many R9 owners a really good reason to purchase a second R9; one for practice and one for carry. That makes so much sense. I really hope they do it.

Offline theirishguard

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Re: Long time lurker with several ?'s
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2007, 12:07:59 PM »
This pistol might not be for everyone. :(   Tom
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Offline Eric5964

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My plan....
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2007, 12:50:30 PM »
with my new Rohrbaugh's...(have both the R9s and Stealth all in 2 weeks)...sickness I know. My plan is to shoot some practice mags, both WWB and the some Speer gold dots, then pocket holster the R9s for any close range emergencies.

After reading and doing my homework on this gun, I understand that this is what this gun is intended to do. It was created for convenient pocket power, god forbid if you ever need it. It was not created to be a workhorse that you take to the range weekly, it is a precision instrument that can be with you in times where others can't, and provide adequate stopping power. I have many others that can be abused at the range. That is my intention with the Rohrbaugh, others may vary.

EricE

Offline BytorJr

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Re: Long time lurker with several ?'s
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2007, 03:12:44 PM »
pbwe and DVC, it sounds like we're on the same wavelength.   I just don't think it's possible to get too much familiarity with a firearm, especially one used for self-defense in a concealed environment.  One of the major issues I hear from LE is that they don't get enough range time unless they spend their own time and money.  Kind of the same principle...practice, practice, practice...of course, perfect practice.

If the R9 can't handle this "50-100 round per month" practice, then it's not the gun for me.  If it works for others, great, I'm not knocking it.  I do think it's one fine looking handgun...one of the best out there.  However, almost any good instructor will tell you regardless of the weapon used, you MUST be proficient with it.    That's why I'm trying to find a pocketable replacement for the J-frame.  Stick with strictly semi-auto's...then the hand position is almost the same for all weapons.  Even I myself find that I'm starting to get lazy and not practice draws and mag reloads, but I'm aware that I need to.  

Maybe I'm overly cautious, just not that good to begin with (highly probable), or just like to be prepared (I was a studyhaulic in college, but most engineers were.)   If you other guys feel prepared, and I do hope you are, great more power to you; we need folks like you out there.  At least we're all somewhat prepared.  Nothing more silly than getting robbed at gunpoint when you either don't own or don't carry.

I also want to say that I appreciate how civilized this board is, along with the Seecamp forum.   I'm on one other board, and I'm continually in some kind of argument that gets blown out of proportion.  You guys have made me welcome since the first post, and I truly appreciate it.  Regardless of our perceived differences on practice (and that could be all it is), you are all a bunch of (as Leupold Butters Scotch would say) "swell" guys.

On a final note, I would like to know the "official" round count limit from somebody like Karl or Eric.  Has this ever been truly mentioned?

Thanks again, good luck, and stay safe.


John

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Re: Long time lurker with several ?'s
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2007, 05:22:55 PM »
It has been stated that for the pup to function properly, It should be cleaned between 50-80rds. Recommended lube now oil. Instead of grease. Because of the tight tolerance of the gun don't overheat it. Recoil spring change take your choice 100 rounds or more. If there is a problem ever with shooting your pup and it breaks send it back for repairs. Rohrbaugh will fix the gun forever for the orginial owner. If you shoot reloads or abuse it than forget it. If you want to go out and shoot it go ahead. I think Karl's gun has 7000 rds. threw it. If someone has doubts about this gun or any other don't buy it. Then you never have to worry. Stick with what you like. Then everyone is happy. There have been pros and cons listed about these firearms for long periods of time. Most people know what they want from a pistol, and it is very easy to determine from all the info out there whether this gun is right for you.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2007, 06:49:54 PM by John »

Offline harrydog

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Re: Long time lurker with several ?'s
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2007, 05:41:06 PM »
That's a good point...as long as they're in business, the gun will be repaired or replaced should it break, assuming it wasn't abused. And if +P ammo isn't used, no one really knows how long an R9 will keep on ticking. Could be that it will hold up to heavy use as long as the springs are changed often enough.
Someone needs to step up to the plate and start shooting a thousand rounds a month to see how long the R9 can hang in there. No, I'm not volunteering.  :)

John

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Re: Long time lurker with several ?'s
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2007, 05:56:22 PM »
I think Brenden should experiment, since he has 4 to spare. He can afford to lose one if necessary. :o Brenden it is for  the good of all mankind. John
« Last Edit: September 08, 2007, 01:38:24 AM by John »

Offline theirishguard

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Re: Long time lurker with several ?'s
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2007, 07:14:10 PM »
Eric Rohrbaugh has over 5,000 rounds thru his R9s, I've heard.   Tom
Tom Watson, DVC , Quis Separabit ,  Who dares wins, Utrinque Paratus