Author Topic: First time out - not perfect.  (Read 3251 times)

Offline Cap.

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First time out - not perfect.
« on: October 18, 2009, 06:10:22 PM »
New R9S Stealth (manufactured in Sept. '09).

Fired 45 rds of Hornady Critical Defense
Fired 50 rds of Winchester White Box
Fired 24 rds of Federal Champion

Total fired: 119.

HCD: 6 Failure to Fire. A second pull of the trigger fired them all. This ammo DOES show flattened primers when fired in this R9. The same ammo was fired in a P7 at the same time, from the same box, and did NOT have flattened primers after firing.

WWB: 2 Failure To Eject, this was attributed to too low of a grip on the pistol causing a 'limp wrist' like rotation of the pistol as it fired. Also 3 Failure to Fire. Second pulls of the trigger fired them all.

Federal: 1 failure to fire. A second pull of the trigger fired the round.

Accuracy at 7 yards was on average 3 - 5 inches.

Accuracy at distances beyond that were significantly worse. 10-12 inch groups were observed while shooting off of a rest at 15 yards. The pistol shot nearly 2 feet low at this range.

The pistol had a tendancy to shoot lower the further away from the target you got. This was observed with three different shooters. This is why 25 yards was not tried. You would have to aim at the top of the 4 ft target board to be able to hit the bottom of it. This is clearly unacceptable.

Targets were examined once this behaviour was observed. All three types of ammo showed signs of 'key holing'. It is believed that all of the ammo shot is tumbing.

My current theory is that the bullets have not stabilized properly and this is causing erratic flight paths. I'm hoping that Winchester Silvertips or Speer Gold Dots will somehow work differently and will stabilize properly. This ammo has not been availabe in my area for some time.


I believe that the hammer spring needs to be a little stronger. It is most likely kept lighter to enhance the trigger pull. I would sacrifice a little trigger pull 'lightness' for more reliable ignition through a harder hammer strike.

Moderate bruising was observed on the web of the authors hand after this trip to the range. The bruising came in the form of 2 'strips' of oultined red, with purple streaks of deeper bruise in the center of the red.
A light deer hide glove was attempted to reduce felt recoil but even that amount of material added too much in front of the trigger of the R9S. The trigger was unable to reset reliably with the glove on.

A solution to this will be trialed on the next range session.. Fingerless gloves.

A 4th shooter was allowed to try the R9S. He shot the pistol twice and then put it down, claiming the gun had too much recoil to be fun to shoot. The author disagrees but sees that this is not a gun for recoil sensitive people or new shooters.

The pistol was then loaded and carried to lunch and around the area with various concealment methods. This is where the pistol really shines. It fits into virtually any pocket and easily dissapears just about anywhere. This alone may make up for some of the shortcommings observed.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2009, 08:56:27 PM by Cap. »

Offline sslater

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Re: First time out - not perfect.
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2009, 08:58:46 PM »
Cap,
Good report.  
As long as I keep my 07/2005-build gun clean, lubed & less than 200 rounds on the recoil spring, reliability is 100%.  Even though the primer strikes sometimes look "strange" my gun almost never has a failure to fire.

I, too, have noticed what look like flattened primers when fired in the R9, and normal primer strikes when rounds from the exact same batch are fired in my Ruger SR9. I'm beginning to wonder if this is a head-space issue.  

124 rounds in one session is a bunch for that little gun, which Rohrbaugh characterizes as a back-up (carry a lot - shoot a little) weapon.  They recommend cleaning / lube every 50 to 80 rounds.  I've never wanted to field strip mine on the range because it's too easy to lose the little springs and pin.
 :P  So I limit my shooting of the little pup to less than 50 rounds per range session.  Lately, I've rarely fired more than three mags.  
BTW: I generally carry Speer GDHP and practice with WWB.  

Steve

Offline Fat Boy

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Re: First time out - not perfect.
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2009, 02:00:56 AM »
Cap.  thanks for the report.  Very concerning for me to read and I can't agree that the small size makes up for these failures.  Hopefully you can find a round that works 100% and then stay with it 100% of the time.

I also had the low shooting issue but really felt that what the gun is intended for is close range self protection and at that distance of 10 yards or less it was exceptable.
Good Luck,
Fat Boy
EDC: HTC Touch Pro, Rohrbaugh R9, Dereelight C2H, Pocket Bible, CRT, Leather Tri-fold, SS Peanut Lighter, Bobster

Offline kjtrains

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Re: First time out - not perfect.
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2009, 11:16:47 AM »
Silvertips and Gold Dots are hard to find, but keep looking.  You'll be glad you did.  
Let us have faith that right makes might, and in that faith, let us, to the end, dare to do our duty as we understand it.  Abraham Lincoln

Offline theirishguard

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Re: First time out - not perfect.
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2009, 02:13:49 PM »
ditto  Tom
Tom Watson, DVC , Quis Separabit ,  Who dares wins, Utrinque Paratus

Offline sdlsaginaw

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Re: First time out - not perfect.
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2009, 04:40:54 PM »
A couple of us have had issues with HCD not firing the first time.  I have not seen this with Gold Dots.

I've NEVER had issues with WWB 115gr FMJ rounds and I don't think anyone else has either.  If the failure to fire was at the start of your session, something is wrong woth the R9.  If it was later, it might be lose grip screws, dirty, or needed to cool down.

Have heard hard primer issues with Federal, I've never fired them.

That is a lot of rounds to fire the R9 in one session.  I can't handle more than a box of 50 at a time.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2009, 04:41:38 PM by sdlsaginaw »

Offline Cap.

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Re: First time out - not perfect.
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2009, 05:12:36 PM »
I fired a box of 25 HCD and then started in on the WWB so it's possible that the grip screws loosened. How tight is tight?

The grip appeared to be on tightly when I tore it down for cleaning last night, but the screws were very easy to remove.

They are very tight now (I installed some CF grips and torqued them down).

Another idea would be that the hammer spring needs to ride around in the frame a little more to polish up the channel a little more.  I'll dry fry the crap out of it tomorrow night and that may help (after I borrow some 9mm snap caps tonight).

There was what I would call an extreme amount of aluminum material (perhaps an eigth of a gram) found within the pistol during it's second (first after firing) cleaning. Other forum posts have suggested to me that this is a normal thing as the barrel lug sets in the frame, which after inspection I see is probably very very true. It's making it's own home in there.

I'm at the point where I need to find the legendary WST or SGD ammo before I go to abuse my hand and targets some more.


Offline Cap.

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Re: First time out - not perfect.
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2009, 07:38:22 PM »
147 gr SGD non +p ordered online. We shall see how they do.

Offline Chief-USN

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Re: First time out - not perfect.
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2009, 11:22:11 AM »
 When you tear down your little PUP and remove grip screws, a good idea is to apply a small amount of locktite (Blue) to the screws, averting the accidental backing out of the screws somewhat.
Allen
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Viet Nam Vet
Desert Storm Vet
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Veteran " Freedom isn't free, I Paid for it"

Offline mefly2

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Re: First time out - not perfect.
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2009, 09:56:08 PM »
What does Mr. R have to say about the possible light primer strikes?

Offline Cap.

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Re: First time out - not perfect.
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2009, 11:29:17 PM »
I haven't called them about it. Mostly because this appears to be 'normal' for the R9.

If I can't get it to work reliably with Gold Dots or Silvertips (which my order got cancelled becuase they really didn't have them in stock but the site said they did...) then I will call them.

To be honest though, I'll be pretty pissed if I have to send back a $1000+ pistol. Hopefully it won't come to that.

If I can find an ammo that works accurately and reliably, I will be satisfied.

Offline Cap.

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Re: First time out - not perfect.
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2009, 10:39:31 PM »
Went to the range today with some different ammo... totally different experience!

Fired:

25 rds Federal 'Low Recoil' 135 gr. hydra-shocks.
0 failures.
6" groups (after the intial group of about 4") @ 16 yds (48 feet).

This was a huge success compared to all the other ammo I have tried!

Fired:
7 rds of WWB.
1 FTE (possible limp wrist.. my hand was injured before shooting).
Horrible accuracy. Signs of tumbling.
This is what I was not enjoying before.

Fired:
18 rds (needed to keep the rest for carry) Federal 124 gr. Hydra-shocks.
0 failures.
Sub 2" groups when you take my own errors out of the equasion (ignore the fliers that I know I caused).

I now have found ammo that I can get locally and it works great!

Some other thoughts:
On the tear-down and cleaning after it's first run, there was a lot of aluminum flakes and a pit being 'broken in' in the frame where the bottom of the barrel lug contacts the frame.
I think it is possible that these flakes were building up under the barrel and also this 'channel' needed to be dug out (parts needed to be mated) so that the back of the barrel did not sit higher than what it is supposed to.
The myth 'does not need a break in' is clearly untrue for this little pistol of mine.

I couldn't get any ammo to NOT shoot 4 ft low @ 15 yds. on my earlier session. Now after a break-in and cleaning, it's shooting perfectly to point of aim @ 15 yds. I seriously could not be happier with this little pistols performance...seriously.

Unfortunately, I was messing around at home during cleaning, pushing the firing pin in with a tooth pic and some tooth pic wood got stuck in there. Now the firing pin is flush with the firing pin retainer.

I really need to get that disassemled and cleaned out so I can carry it tomorrow.

But this is truly an awesome little pistol. I hope it keeps up the good work!
« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 10:41:45 PM by Cap. »

Offline theirishguard

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Re: First time out - not perfect.
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2009, 11:11:54 AM »
Cap, great range report, good to know that the Federal ammo shoots good. thanks Tom
« Last Edit: November 02, 2009, 11:12:17 AM by theirishguard »
Tom Watson, DVC , Quis Separabit ,  Who dares wins, Utrinque Paratus